Episode 17 - Sacred Creativity with Ally Markotich

Anni and guest Ally Markotich explore the divine gifts of creating and being.

Listen to full episode :

Transcript

Welcome to Season 2 of Barely Christian, Fully Christian. I'm your host, Anni Ponder, and I'm so glad you've stopped by for the conversation about loving Jesus, being repulsed by the unChrist-likeness of so much of what the world sees from Christianity, and my personal favorite, honoring the Holy Spirit as the Divine Mother, or as I call her, Mama God.

On today’s episode, I talk with creative formation practitioner Ally Markotich about the process of creating and becoming, and she shares three of her newly-published poems for the heart and soul. I think you’ll love our conversation.

Anni: Well, I want to give a really warm welcome to Ally Markotich. Ally is an artist, a poet, and creative formation practitioner, and I look forward to hearing what that means. She's the creator of Soul Kindling LLC, an online creative website where she offers courses and private sessions for people to spark their sacred imagination, open prayerful possibilities, and nurture feminine intuition (oh, this is so up my ally) through color drawing and the magic of words. She is also the author of the newly released book Soul Kindling, Ignite Your Sacred Creative Heart. And that's where I'm going to stop. There's a whole lot more to Ally, but we're going to start right there with hello and welcome. Thanks for joining us here today. And wow, you have a new book out. So let's talk about that first. I want to hear everything about this beautiful new book, Soul Kindling.

Ally: Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here. Yeah. So that in my new book is a book of poetry and art. And it's really this invitation to slow down your soul, you know, and just be with this possibility of creativity for yourself in your life. And this invitation to connect with divine love through acts of creation.

Anni: That seems so completely right to be engaged in creation to connect with Creator.

Ally: Yeah, right. It's, you know, I always think about that first, I think about Genesis one, you know, just in the beginning, God created, it's the first verb, and it's, you know, spoken words, spoken breath, spoken light, and then we're made in the image of that. And, you know, to really, really boldly claim ourselves as the creators that we are.

Anni: Oh, I love that so much. In God's image, we are creators. And so, you have found joy and healing, restoration, all of the things through doing creative things yourself and also walking with people as they uncover their creative abilities.

Ally: Absolutely. And, you know, I think one of the things that I think is just starting to unfold for me in the recently is, you know, it really did initially start out with specific creative acts, you know, kind of like those things that we kind of put under the umbrella of like these, you know, this is creative. So it's like, you know, I've always kind of connected through drawing and color and painting and those kinds of things. But now what I'm really beginning to see is that the thread of creation is much, you know, deeper, wider, longer than that, that, you know, everything we do is an act of creation. And when we really start to tune into that, and become intentional about the choices that we're making, it can really, like life can just become so much fun, so much of an adventure and so much of an engagement with the mystery and surprise of where the divine wants to take you.

Anni: I love that. I am really enlivened by the artwork in your book and so I'm just gonna let the listeners know it's available lots of different places I would imagine on your website and probably through Amazon. Highly recommend this book of poetry and art where you have a great focus on the divine feminine which is what drew me to your work and made me want to have a conversation with you. And you do this colorful sort of, do you always start with a scribble? Is that how your art begins?

Ally: A lot of the art in this book is, it starts with a line, you know, it starts, oh, my dog just came in.

Anni: Oh, we love dogs, welcome.

Ally: Oh, you might hear him in the background. Anyways, so yes, typically, I start with like, just a release of a line. And then I just see where that line, where it wants to take me. And I look at the line and, you know, I twist it around and look at it in different ways. And then I, you know, I will, I will start to develop it into figures and characters and that sort of a thing.

Anni: It's amazing when I first looked at your artwork in your book, I thought, oh, this is actually really a beautiful array of line and color. And she must have a great idea of what it looks like from start to finish. That was my first thought because it all comes together so beautifully. And then later on I read, oh no, this is your process. You make a line and then you do some other lines and then you fill it in and you find the shape that it is. So it's so organic. It appears.

Ally: Yeah, it it is so organic. I mean, there are times when it's like I might have like an idea like, oh, I know that I want there to be some kind of forest element in this image or something. So I'm just holding like something loosely as I as I go. But a lot of the time, I mean, what I find to be I think one of my heart, one of my ahas along the way has been that the process is where divine relationship resides. And there was a time when I was very clung to like the end product of what I was creating. And I needed it to look a certain way. And I needed it to be kind of perfect. And then if it wasn't perfect, it would get thrown in the trash. You know, I mean, all of those things. And this way of creating where you really loosen your grip on what it is and what it's going to be has truly released me into like just a sense of creative freedom. Because I'm not really so concerned anymore with that with the, you know, perfection of it or anything like that. It's more like it's more like surprise. I'm like, I'm going to sit down today. Where does the line want to take me today? Like what's going to show up? Like who's going to who's going to come on board? And I mean, I do have a sense that I like I know I like working with figures. So, you know, essentially, like I know that I need to have something a little round shape for a head at some point or something like that. But but really just allowing the images to come through as they do. And I'm always surprised. I'm always like, wow, look at this idea this is going to come through.

Anni: Wow. This takes me to a really interesting question that I have never considered before. So this is a brand new question. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Ally: Okay, yes.

Anni: Okay, so I so appreciate your grounding and framing this conversation in the context of Genesis and I'm thinking about God as creator and suddenly I'm wondering, does God ever surprise God's self in acts of creation?

Ally: I mean, I would, I would think that I would think yes. I mean, why not?

Anni: What a wonderful thought that perhaps there is so much joy in what God creates that there isn't a “This is what I'm going to make” and and a divine plan spelled out to the nth degree but like let us let's make something let's see what comes up today and I just wonder you know and and I'm sure I'm treading on theological very thin ice here for those with maybe more of a literal interpretation of the scripture but I just wonder if there is an element of freedom even within the Godhead when they set about to create and how much how much planning goes into it versus how much freedom of expression is there I don't know this is a brand new thought Ally. So what do you think?

Ally: I'm so glad, I actually, I love that thought and I love the word freedom because I think, well, I mean, it's like as a mother, I can say that there comes a point in time when you have to allow your kids to be free to become who they are. And oftentimes I think in that freedom, our children can surprise us with how beautiful they become, with things that they go and do and be that you maybe never even imagined. And I think to a certain degree, that's the gift of engaging with creativity, with our own creativity in a very loose way. I mean, so oftentimes we wanna judge what we create, we wanna come at it and almost like attack it, like, well, I did this wrong and oh, I didn't get it right here, but if we can loosen our grip on it and just go, wow, I showed up today and I tried and like there is a sense of freedom in that and even just this conversation is a creation, you don't know where this created conversation could go and lead and what wings it might have in a way.

Anni: What wings it might have. That's a really beautiful metaphor. I just wonder if God enjoys that same kind of creative freedom. And of course, coming from the Judeo -Christian context that you and I both have been rooted in, my red flags come up right away. But God is omnipotent and omniscient, and so knows all and sees all and does all. But suddenly I find myself wondering, does God allow for that kind of freedom and expression? And then I'm thinking back in Genesis, let there be light, let there be beasts upon the earth, let there be animals in the air, in the sea. That certainly to me sounds like allowing things to come into being, not necessarily controlling for them, but letting them come to be, sort of how you do your art. Having a general idea and letting it show up, take its form, I don't know. This is a wild thought.

Ally: It is, and you know, I'm a good person to have this conversation with because I release all of the, you know, part of is sometimes what I like to do is I do like to kind of push the edges of scripture and just kind of go, you know, okay, I see what the black and white text says, but we're, what is the, what is that white space around it? And you know, that to me, that's where the imagination is. And I think that sometimes I think we're lacking in imagination in our, in our faith, because we've maybe been given, well, this is what it is, and this is how to believe. And there's something about, you know, that it's like sacred imagination is really important to me that we can work with our imagination in with God to have new thoughts and to, and to question, you know, scenarios and systems and all of those things. I mean, I think that that's what helps to grow us as a people and as individuals. And I think that creator is always growing. I mean, if there's no growth, then there's always a revolution. There's always a rotation.

Anni: And always expansion, which is a concept that's currently blowing my mind. God is always expanding, and that's why God is infinite. Because if God is not expanding, then there is a boundary to where God is not. And so this ever expanding, ever reaching out and growing and becoming, I don't know, it's an interesting place that my mind has been also, and like you, I have a great deal of freedom in how I look at the black and white text and then go, and what's between the lines? And what's not being said that is maybe even in the original author's intention, a treasure for me to dig here for and ask questions about and wonder about and have some freedom to explore and realize that there's a lot between the lines. And that's actually where the connection is with God in the silence that's not spoken and in our imagination as well. So I'm curious right now, if you have a poem, I'm going to just put you on the spot entirely. If there is something that's coming to your mind that you could read to us from your beautiful book that kind of speaks to this process of creation, creativity, imagination, and freedom that you embody so well in words and images and color. And I wish everybody could see the colors that you use. I was going to ask you, this is one of my questions, what are your very favorite colors? I think I know just by looking at your work, but what are your favorite colors to work with?

Ally: I really, I, well, I love, you know, super vibrant colors. But I tend to go a lot towards like the aqua blues and the bright yellows. Like I have it on right now. This is like, those are kind of my, that's a lot of times that shows off in my, in my work. So it's funny, because I had, I had, I had picked like a few poems before I showed up today just to, to see, just to go, okay, well, this one might be a good one. And the first one is kind of about growing. So I think that that feels like that's right spot on.

Anni: Okay, fantastic.

Ally: It's called The Gardener. I wake at 7:16 am and decide I matter. On this very day, I choose to love myself. I bend my ear to the soft ripe seed within me rather than the voices that promise a plan for my life. My fingers sink into cosmic astral pockets and take hold of the magic that belongs to me. I toss my starry sprinkle of balm wherever I go. And before long, a garden flourishes around me. Flowers of fancies keep arising. Tell me what can I do other than gather flowers and share them with friends. This ongoing beauty guides me to nurture the spiraling love within. I regularly catch sight of the gardener who proclaims my name and speaks, keep growing. I am with you. I do the only thing I can I keep growing and glowing.

Anni: Oh, there are so many images in that poem where I want to stop and highlight and underline and circle and dog ear this page. The one that stands out to me the most, can you read the line again about where you grow flowers and share them with friends?

Ally: Yeah, tell me, what can I do other than gather flowers and share them with friends?

Anni: Truly what I see you doing in the world right now, gathering your flowers and sharing them out through the work that you do. This is such a beautiful way of expressing what you're here to do in the world. And so that brings me to, I'm just really curious, Ally, if you could share with us a little bit about how did you get to this place in your growth journey? I might say evolution, although I don't want to trigger people who that's a dicey word to be using throwing around. It is a hotspot word, yeah. How did you get to this place where you have such freedom to create? Could you just tell me a little bit about your backstory, how you've come here?

Ally: Yeah, I mean, I can tell you I was always kind of connected to myself as an artist from early on, you know, from my early younger years. I drew a lot, wrote a lot, colored a lot, all of those things. And I would say that, you know, over time, I disconnected from it. And when I found my way back to it, because I was doing some work with spiritual formation specifically, and, you know, spiritual formation is the practices of faith. It's really, but it's contemplative practices of faith. And a lot of times the contemplative practices of faith are not really, they're much more now, but like when I did 10, 15 years ago, contemplative practices were like very under the radar.

I mean, you didn't have them in mainline faith traditions. And now you see it a lot more where you might have a circle in a traditional place of faith that is, you know, practicing silence together, practicing centering prayer, or Lectio Divina, those kinds of contemplative practices. You know, I mean, Richard Rohr has done so much to bring awareness to contemplative practice through the Center for Action and Contemplation. You know, I guess I would just say that this, that time of me coming back, coming almost back to something that it's like, I almost like deeply knew in my heart and soul, but like, I'd been away from it for a long time. So that I've been very active in out doing everything, you know, just doing all the things and coming back to silence was like, oh, like God is here loving me in my nothingness. I don't actually have to like do, I don't have to do, do, do, do, do. I can sit and I'm still, I can still be loved in this place. And, you know, that ultimately kind of started me drawing again and writing some poetry. And, you know, I, it was definitely doing work with Shiloh Sophia, who helped me guide me into a deeper way to work with more of my internal map. That's what I would say is like, we have so much of our focus in life as like the external. And there is a way to go deep within and there's an internal map that we have inside of us. And it's full of, you know, symbols and marks and makings and colors and lines and all of these things. And when we slow down and begin to ask about it, draw about it, write about it, it's, it'll, it meets you. And I think that that ultimately was also my entrance into seeking the sacred feminine, because you can't do internal work and not meet her.

Anni: That's where she is.

Ally: She's gonna show up. I mean, it's like, as soon as you slow down long enough and you really start to, I mean, you, you can put her off and kind of put your hand up and be like, no, not today, mama, God, I'm not doing it today. But she's gonna keep knocking on your door until you know what I'm saying.

Anni: I absolutely know what you're saying. I resonate so deeply with all of this, and I'm struck by how you talk about a coming back to yourself and via the doorway of silence. And this is so fascinating that you're talking about right now, Ally. I don't think I shared this with you, but I am right now taking a Master's degree from St. Stephen's University in Theology and Culture with an emphasis on peace building and justice work. And the very first thing they are requiring that we do before we can get into, all right, let's roll up our sleeves and bring some justice and peace in the world, is we have to learn how to sit in silence. We have to learn how to come home to ourselves. We have to be formed by all of these practices of spiritual formation that you're talking about. This is so fascinating. I'm just so enlivened right now that you would mention this. And so this is the world that I'm really walking into right now. And I'm struck by how you said you found your way back to yourself through these practices of silence, of contemplation, Lectio Divina, all of these different sort of ancient Christian tools that we have. And through that, you have begun creating again.

Ally: Yeah.

Anni: That strikes me as so poignant that your creativity has blossomed out of a place where you are sitting in silence with God.

Ally: Yeah, I mean, honestly, it's and it's creating in a much healthier way because it is about the process and it is about it. I mean, when I create, I don't you know, I don't have any music or anything like that on. I mean, some people might, but it's like for me, the silence is part of it because it's about being present to what might what messages might be arising or where does the line want to lead me or what is the pattern that wants to form? I mean, all of these we use such visual language in our everyday, like day to day conversations. And when we actually really slow down with it and create the visual for it. Wow. I mean, that's that can be part of the internal mapping for ourselves. And, you know, I there is something about, I think, the silence and the solitude that then just open you up because it's like there's something that really connects you back with something that you deeply know about yourself that you deeply are being asked to honor once more. And for me, it was physically drawing and writing. But for other people, it might be something different. But just taking that time to slow down and to be uncomfortable in the silence because it is uncomfortable. I mean, I will be the first one to admit that I get very restless in silence.

Anni: Yes. And I think that's the first thing that everybody says when the conversation comes around to, how about sitting in silence and not saying anything, just being in God's presence and consenting to God's presence and action within. I mean, all the conversations that I've tuned my ear to about this, the first thing is, oh, but you don't know my monkey brain. I cannot possibly. And usually what we find is that beneath that anxiety of I'll never be able to turn off the faucet of my thoughts, which I'm learning I don't actually have to do. Like I can just watch them go by and return to my breath. So it's not so much a battle of stop thinking. No, you stop thinking. No, I'm thinking about not thinking, but oh, I lost my train of thought there. I got thinking about not thinking.

Ally: Well, I think you were just talking about people, you know, who don't like sitting in silence.

Anni: And in general, what I'm finding, what I'm learning is that underneath the primary anxiety that we have about, I'll never be able to stop thinking is what if I meet what's truly inside? What if I come face to face with what lives deep within me? And we have not learned that what's deeply within us is good and worth knowing and worth sitting with. And I am so sad when I look at particularly how some, not all, but some expressions of Christianity have hounded the point that, you know, we're bad. Our heart is not to be trusted. We cannot, like, don't even go with your gut because you're so sinful, you know, the original sin, the original curse theology that is, in my estimation, complete rubbish. Because when we look at Genesis, we are made in God's image. And what is deeply embedded within us is good and God -like and God's image and likeness. And so I just would say to anybody going, oh, I don't want to sit with myself, I'm afraid to look inside, have courage because what is inside, that's where God's image resides. And so we can look, we can listen. There will be things that come up for sure. There will be many ugly things that we face when we turn our gaze inward. But what's deeply embedded inside is holy and good and worth knowing.

Ally: Yeah, absolutely. I have a friend who has, she has now passed away, but she used to say to me, Ally, it all depends on where you begin your story. Do you begin in Genesis 1 or do you begin in Genesis 2? Because if you begin in Genesis 1, you're beginning with goodness. And if you begin your story in Genesis 2, then you're starting with your sinfulness. And that has always stayed with me because I'm with you. I believe that we have to begin with goodness. We have to begin that we are made in the image of love and love is good and that we have this holy spark inside of us. And beyond the voice of the critic resides love. Beyond the voice of fear resides love. And it takes a lot of courage to sit silent and let those voices that are not as helpful to let them pass by so that you can really hear the deeper well of love that lives inside.

Anni: Yes, I so agree. I'm curious whether what you would say about this, because earlier you mentioned, you know, coming inside of ourselves is also where you have met the fine feminine, which is so enlivening to me. Have you read The Heroine's Journey by Maureen Murdoch?

Ally: That is one I haven't heard of, no.

Anni: Okay. Are you familiar with the Hero’s journey? Okay, right?

Ally: Yes, I sure am. Okay.

Anni: Thanks to Joseph Campbell for that beautiful way of seeing all of the arcs of all of our epic stories. So the heroine's journey, this woman, Maureen Murdock, paints us a picture of what this inner journey looks like because the hero's journey, the hero goes out, fights dragons, whatever, brings back the elixir, saves the people. Cool. The heroine's journey that we all must also take, it's both and, and I always like to say in these conversations, nobody's asking for matriarchy to please replace patriarchy. We're looking for balance and both and.

Ally: Right. Absolutely. That's right. I'm with you.

Anni: I shouldn't say nobody's asking. I mean, there are voices out there saying, let's just get rid of men. That's not what we are saying. No, that's not what we're saying. No. So the heroine's journey is this one where we go inward and we make reparation for the split that has happened with between ourselves and divine femininity, our own sacred femininity that resides within all of us, men, women, folks of all shapes and sizes, right? And we meet in the dark, deep quiet is where we meet who I would call Mama God. I didn't even ask you what's your favorite name for divine feminine?

Ally: I call her Soul Mama.

Anni: Soul Mama. Oh, I love that. So I'm so enlivened to hear you say it's through these spiritual formative practices where you're meeting her. And then out of that comes your creative expressions and the gifts, the flowers that you grow in your soul that you then pick and offer to your friends. I think that's exactly how it's meant to be, sitting deeply with her. And I don't know, you may have heard me say this. I've said many times, for those who are just tiptoeing into this awareness of there being a Mama God, I just want you to know that in my personal experience, I have asked Father God, who I often call Papa God or other names. I hope it doesn't bother you that I'm so focused on her right now and check in with Jesus. I don't mean to ignore you. I'm just so excited to have my Mother. And what I've heard from Father God and Jesus is, oh goodness, we're so glad you finally found her. She's been here all along and we wanted you to know her and we don't feel left out at all. So I just thought I'd put that out there in case anybody's like, yeah, but what about, yeah, they don't mind. They're actually really delighted that we are coming into this maybe more holistic understanding of who the Godhead really is, the three in one, if you happen to reside with the Trinitarians.

Ally: I feel like this would be a good time for another poem because I have this poem called The Divine Father Let Me Go, so it feels like it's very timely. It's called The Divine Father Let Me Go. The Father Let Me Go, he said, it's time you find your way. I don't want to leave this safety net. This is all I've known. The sun speaks. There's another path, an organic way of listening. Go. I don't want to go. In this place, I know the rules. I know what is expected of me. I know what prayers to speak. Another voice rises. Her tone is grace. This is not your place any longer. Come with me. I argue with all my might, blame with all my spite, fret with all my fright, then a speck of light. This glow isn't a simple ray of gentle ease. This glare urges me to unravel everything I think I know about the King of Kings. This beacon points to the difficult, has me on my knees inspecting the disappearance of Lilith, the intuition of Rahab, the truth about snakes. My eyes open to the systemic toxicity of the ground I stand upon. I mourn the twisted history I've been given. No, this lemon aroma isn't all bright beam. It cleans out the clutter in my soul. Here, I'm advised to bow to what culture considers strange, dreams, symbols, energy, shadow beings. Most moments, I want to go back to how things were, to black and white ease, when all I had to do was arrive and nod at another person's directions. Who is I Am? Who is this radical love that urges me to look under rocks and behind trees? The days of dogma are over. I cannot simply stand and recite prayers of the empire. Sing songs to a king, because now I understand that there were times before patriarchy, when hieroglyphics were honored, when women wrote on cave walls, when people danced in circles, when women's hands played drums, when mama's breasts were full of reverence, when holy clay held ancient consciousness. Now I know the father let me go to be a voice for the mother, and there is no turning back.

Anni: What? You know, when I read your book, I, I didn't read carefully enough and I missed that gem. Wow. Wow. Oh, thank you for that. I just want to pause in gratitude. That might be one to memorize actually.

Ally: Thank you.

Anni: Wow. Yes. There was a time we are now learning where there was reverence for all that is sacred and feminine as well as masculine. And don't you think that, you know, the twisted history that you've been given, that you said, don't you think... I would venture so far as to say, I've come to a place where I am confident that all of the illness that we have can be traced back to this split where we are divided, where there's a separation, where there's masculine over there and there's feminine over there. And then at some point we just took this turn and we just revered only masculine. And I just think it has caused... I think it's at the root of all of the ills that we see. That's pretty strong language, but I'm placing the blame there. That's where I think we got off our course.

Ally: I definitely feel at some point there was a split. And a different kind of story started to rise up that became the dominant story. And now it's like for so long, the matrilineal story has just been completely under the radar. And I'm always so amazed when I find things that were written a long time ago that speak to this because I'm like, oh, there have been people been doing this kind of work for a very, very long time. This is nothing new. And that's where I just feel like the consciousness is starting to rise, the awareness is coming back. This has been here all along. And the more voices that we have for, the more I believe we start remembering it. And I think it's like what you said before, it's certainly not to delete the masculine in any sort of way, but it is to bring that equity and to bring a balance and to say, you know, women can have a place and a voice and the feminine within, let me just say that it's not about it's not even about the woman, it's about the it's about more the feminine essence, I would say.

Anni: I I totally agree. I have this question that I've asked a couple of people who in my estimation have a very good viewpoint of particularly Christianity and it's it's trends and where it's going. And so the first person that I asked this question to was Rob Bell. I was sitting across from him at one of his I don't know it's not a retreat really it's not a seminar, but he just sits with people under the trees.Yeah, under the trees in Ojai, right, you know, that's what you've heard him talk about that. Okay, so I went and did that and it was Fabulous. It was so good highly recommend so my question for Rob was because of his viewpoint of Christianity from such a you know, he's perched up pretty high up the tree and sees the landscape I said Do you think that Christianity will have room for the divine feminine? And he said No. They won't. Don't waste your time. And also they're gonna call you a witch just so you know. I was like, oh Wow Okay, so I I sat with that Like oh that's interesting. So from where Rob Bell sits, Christianity is not going to be able to come into its heritage of You know the divine union that exists and he said do your thing, write your books, do your podcast, your blogs But don't Don't Try to get Christianity to come along like just move on. Yeah, and I was like, oh that's really sad. Okay, so then a couple years later. I am sitting with Brad Jerzak, I don't know if you know of his writings.

Ally: I don't know if I know him.

Anni: Yeah, you'd probably love him. I think he wrote A More Christlike God, A More Christlike Church. I read Out of the Embers, which is a beautiful exploration of the necessary process of deconstruction in its purest form, where you don't chop down the tree but you prune off branches that need to be taken off. Anyway, so I was sitting with him and I asked him the same question, okay, from your vantage point. And so he, I think, identifies most closely with Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox Christianity. Although he told me when they asked me to preach, I ask them, could my wife also preach? And when they say no, I tell them I won't because she can't. Wow. Okay, so that's a brilliant little bit of perspective. So I said to him, all right, do you think Christianity will have room for Mama God? Is there any sort of hope? And he looked at me and he said, oh, it already does. There are hundreds of thousands of Christians around the world who are already calling out to the divine femininity from within Christianity. And so you're not alone, you're not the only one. And I was like, really? Where are we? Where is everyone? And then about two weeks after that, a friend of mine reached out and said, you've got to get on this global summit that's happening that Kathleen Joan is creating. And you've got to meet all these women calling out to divine feminine and in the intersection of that and Christianity. And I was you're kidding. And it wasn't just women, it was also men. And I was like, no way. There's a global summit happening, which is, of course, I didn't express this earlier, but what led me to learn about who you are in the world. And so that has been a tremendously exciting thing in my world to find, like you were saying, this has been here all along. It has been hidden maybe. And maybe we could say it was overt. Maybe it was by accident. I'm not really so interested in that conversation as I am the fact that, no, this has just been here and it's been hidden from view. And now it's emerging and we're finding a greater sense of wholeness in searching out the divine feminine.

Ally: It's, I mean, it's so, it's so true, and it's so good. And I, you know, I think that I think it's similar, right, to like the contemplative practices that like a decade ago, a lot of churches, maybe not. But now, you know, it's more common, even if a church might not call it contemplative practices, it's like they might have a silent prayer circle, and that's what they call it. But if you're contemplative, you know that that's a contemplative practice.

Anni: You know, right, call it what you will, and that's what that is.

Ally: But that's what, you know, it comes from the contemplative, you know, line of Christianity. And I kind of feel that that's, you know, I think that for those of us who are seeking the sacred feminine, she shows you the way and she shows you to places that are spaces where, where she is honored. And it's like I know for myself, I've just, I've had to, I've had to find my own flow about where those kinds of places of community are for me. And it doesn't always look like a traditional place of faith for me. I've really had to, I have to a certain degree had to let it go, that the traditional like church is going to meet me in my needs of like wanting, you know, it's like if it were up to me, I would have like the language, always include the feminine from the pulpit, you know, or, or like to have it be both and all the time. And it's like, now I have spaces and places where that is honored, but it's not typically in, you know, it's just not typically in a traditional place. And that's okay. Like I've had to kind of just go, yeah, I mean, you're talking about the church, you're talking about an institution that has been that was built on, you know, my computer is having trouble right now.

I'm so sorry. It's just not.

to hear very much what you were saying there.

for the feminine, you know?

Anni: trying to reconnect. This is so disappointing. Can you hear me? Okay. I can. Good. Sorry. Sorry about that little lost connection, but I think I got what you were saying there. And yeah, when I'm sitting in, so I attend, my husband and I attend an Anglican church, which is really life -giving and beautiful. I love the liturgy, but I do find myself wanting to pray our Father and Mother who art in heaven and to change some of the pronouns in the hymns that we sing. And that ship has not begun to turn around so far as I can tell, like there's within these traditional circles. And maybe that's okay, like you're saying. Maybe there are other places where our souls can find the expression that honors and reveres the divine feminine. And maybe that's kind of the gathering that we do more organically. Part of the work that you do, like the retreat that I'm hosting coming up, those are the spaces for that.

Ally: Yeah. And I, you know, I think in some ways it's also giving yourself permission when you are in in places of faith that, you know, maybe the language is masculine for you yourself to speak into the feminine for yourself or to silently speak the feminine for yourself. I mean, sometimes that's just what I do. It's like, you know, it's not to be rebellious. It's not to be, you know, anti, but it's just to honor my own kind of truth for myself and to just go in this moment, I'm not, I don't want to connect in with the King of Kings. I want to, you know, I want to connect in with Soul Mama. So that's what I'm going to do while we speak the prayer or while we, you know, so just finding those ways, I think to give yourself permission can also free you up in your own faith walk, wherever you find yourself.

Anni: Absolutely. It feels like a genuine expression of what's inside me to do that. And I really like that you say, this is not to be rebellious. It's not to cause trouble. I'm not here to pick it out in the front of my church, like God is our Mama too. That's a funny image actually. But to be genuinely expressing what is within me toward God, I do include feminine pronouns. I do speak her name quietly to myself, to her. Or if I happen to have a daughter next to me, her. Something else that I wanted to see, I wanted to explore with you. In conversations where I'm talking with maybe a friend or a church member who's like, I hear you talk about Mama God, and that really freaks me out. Something that I notice is that oftentimes people who are not interested in that conversation with me, or they're just putting up some walls, have a really troubled relationship, if any, with their own mother. And so the idea of calling out to a maternal God is not, it's just not happening because my relationship with my own mom is so fraught with chaos or dysfunction or whatever. I can't possibly, I just, I just need this Father God, which is interesting because I know that is such a stumbling block to many who have difficult or absent relationships with their dad, calling out to Father God can seem weird or dangerous. And so it's not surprising, but I'm just wondering if you have come upon that in conversations. And if you have any sort of thoughts around how do we come alongside these, these people in their anguish with their disappointment from what didn't happen with their moms or maybe the trauma of things that did happen with their moms and recognize that Soul Mama, in your words, I just love that, is above and beyond better than we can imagine.

Ally: Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, our human our human mothers, no matter how wonderful or not that they are or were. I think that there is always something that as children, we may be needed that we didn't receive. I mean, I just think that's that's just I just think that's humanity to a certain degree. Um, and I think that that is where the divine meets us is in those voids is in those empty spaces and places for ourselves. And to me, the invitation of Mother God is that, you know, if there is a space where you, you know, or a situation, a circumstance with either of your parents that you just feel like, gosh, this really was missing for me as a child to allow the grace and love of the, you know, of Mother-Father, God to fill to fill that in. And, you know, I, for me, you know, the way that I see Mother God is very much a God of compassion. And one who embraces and one who is who is like, you could just like climb up on her lap and she's going to like hold you. So there's something about the holding, I think the and I would even say maybe spacious holding, right? Like not clinging so tight to you that you can't breathe, but giving you room to move and also like having her arms around you to know that she is with you. And so, I mean, to me, it's like I a lot of the women that I've worked with are very open to Mother God, like usually people who are attracted, especially to like the creative practice work that I do and they know that I'm kind of focused on the feminine, when they hear it, they're they want to know more about it. And so they're kind of like they're they're into it. I think people are afraid to tell me they're not really into it if they're talking to they don't challenge me on it. And that's OK. I mean, that's fine. But it's like, you know, it's not going to deter me because I know from my own experience that there has been like just a deep amount of healing to be able to kind of go there for myself in my own depths of story and spirit for myself with the mother. I don’t know if that answers anything, but hopefully that will help.

Anni: It really does. It really does. And I just have this picture of this unified person of God, the Father-Mother, whole integral person that God is, having everything that anyone could need. And so if somebody was fathered really poorly and didn't learn about what a good father can teach and show, then the father part of God can come around and re-parent that person in that particular way. And then if somebody was abandoned by mother, the mother part of God can wrap around and say, that wasn't me. I just want you to know here I am, and can give each soul sort of the medicine that we need. And it looks different for different people. And so I'm sitting with, I had a conversation last week with a friend who was like, I know you're all about Mama God, and I just can't even right now. And while I'm like, oh, that's sad. She's amazing. Then I'm also able to say, I know God is giving you right now what it is that you do need and what you're able to receive in this moment. And maybe that will come in this lifetime. Maybe it won't. It's not my business to say, but there is like this great peace in knowing that God is all that everyone needs. And so we can rest in that.

Ally: Yeah and like as you were talking I mean one of the things that you know I that is coming to me just as you spoke is around like you said the word re-parent and I think that there is is something about our experience of I for me that Mother God is the is the internal and there's something about allowing that inner divine within us re-parent those places for ourselves right and to you know to allow the I think that's why the silence and solitude, right it leads us down deep in and for me I guess a visual artist and working kind of from the inside out there's something about having the visual in front of you that is so it's such an opportunity for a person to gaze upon their own creation with compassion and to see what they've been holding within so you know even just a simple practice of you know if you're disconnected from like Mother God to you know maybe do a simple practice where you write about your grief and then you paint colors over top of it of your grief and then you open to a new page and you just say like let me meet let me meet divine love and draw a line and kind of see where that line takes you and develop it into maybe it's not even a form maybe it's not a figure maybe your divinity is something in nature or maybe it's just abstract but there's something about bringing like the healing onto the page that can start to I think reweave a story that has maybe been one that has pain for you.

Anni: I love that so much. I can see that being useful in so many contexts, writing about our grief, painting, what a great way to express and visualize and come to terms with these deep things that our souls need to offer up in order for us to heal. Oh, I find myself really wanting to live near you so that I can come and do some of these things with you.

Ally: Well, I mean, I do one-on-ones online, so just, you know, together so just so you know.

Anni: Yeah, I did not realize you did that mmm. Okay good to know well before we wrap up I'm wondering if you have one more poem you could share that That seems to be speaking to you right now?

Ally: Okay, um, I feel like this one is a good one. It's called Landing Spot for Ideas. And it's a fun one. There I was folding my laundry in the quiet crevices of a quite ordinary alcove when whoosh, she found me again. She, a wonderfully whimsical idea, looking for a place to land. I can't tell you where she came from, only that I greeted her. She landed on me gently, like a cool drop of water, seemingly out of nowhere, refreshing and surprising all at once. Soon enough, she wrapped me with ribbons of rainbows, strange stirrings, quirky questions, intriguing imaginings. She led me outdoors to where the water lives and motioned, don't be afraid. Dip your hands in, your arms too. Yes, swim down, down to the bottom to see what you find. The what ifs creep in. What if I find something I'd rather not? What if this something I find leads to change? What if this change challenges the status quo? What if status quo resists who I am becoming? What if I fail at the whole thing? Mother God quietly observes me with love, her silent demeanor a strong support. From within my core I feel, from the rumble in my belly, failure is the only route to take. Failure is the risk I must face. Come with me now and take the plunge, a soaking wet clumsy dive toward mystery at the heart of a bottomless enigma.

Anni: So beautiful. I love it. I've actually spent quite a lot of time immersing myself in cold water. And so as you're reading, I'm thinking of the times I have plunged in and it's a clumsy dive. And I never know what to expect. But that's a beautiful expression there of the tentative steps that we take toward the mystery that is just so invitational. And it's okay if it doesn't look perfect. It's okay if we find something hard. It's all okay. There we are wrapped in the loving arms of our Mother.

Ally: Yeah. And I mean, and true, truly failure is the risk we must take to a certain degree. And there, I believe that with Mother God with us, you know, there's a soft landing waiting for us and, um, you can trust in that.

Anni: Yes yes oh thank you Ally, this has been soul food.

Ally: Yay!

Anni: And very soon I think you can expect to hear from me about, hey, when can we do one of these one -on -one sessions you're talking about? That sounds just great. Please let us know, how can folks find you on the interwebs?

Ally: Well, it's really easy because it's the same name as my book. So my website is soulkindling.com. And that's where I have that's where I have, you know, just some course offerings and one on ones with me. And then I'm also if people if people get the book, I'm going to be I'm going to have a free complimentary course that goes along with one of the poems once the book comes out. It's just like a little seven day kind of taste of creative practice. And so that just gives kind of an idea of like the kind of stuff that I do. Yes.

Anni: Oh, wonderful. Okay, sign me up. Yep. All right. Well, thank you so much. Many blessings.

Ally: Thank you. Same to you. Thanks so much for having me.

Thank you so much for listening. Let's connect. I'm always happy to hear from my listeners and readers. You can find me at BarelyChristianFullyChristian.com. And now for more of my favorite song by Wyn Doran and Paul Craig, please enjoy "Banks of Massachusetts."