Episode 18 - Amen, Spencer LaJoye

Spencer and Anni discuss knowing what we need, loving the whole self, and holding space for possibility when hope is too hard. Spencer's musical medicine and deep wisdom are just what the world needs.

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Transcript

Welcome to season two of Barely Christian, Fully Christian. I'm your host, Anni Ponder, and I'm so glad you've stopped by for the conversation about loving Jesus, being repulsed by the un-Christ likeness of so much of what the world sees from Christianity, and my personal favorite, honoring the Holy Spirit as the Divine Mother, or as I call her, Mama God.

Today's episode is a really special treat I am so delighted to be able to share with you. One of my very favorite musicians from all time and space, Spencer LaJoye, came to my town. We had a conversation and I get to share it with you right now.

So pour yourself something wonderful to drink, circle around and enjoy this conversation with Spencer LaJoye. Okay, well, a huge welcome to you, Spencer. It is a joy and an honor to have you here in my little tiny podcast closet in the middle of Washington state.

I'm so excited. Welcome. Your listeners can't see this, but it's so cute. The closet's so cute. There's a little desk that folds down with microphones and headphones and soundproof paneling on the walls and twinkly lights.

and it's all of my favorite colors here we have yeah so this is my little tiny place where I speak to the world so I'm so glad you have joined thank you well so for everybody to know Spencer came to my town yesterday and did what is going down in my mind as my favorite concert I've ever been to oh wow and we've escalated since last night we have after I thought about it a while I was like okay and and you're running with the likes of as I told you Yanni and Michael W. Smith right so this is pretty big but last night there was something that was just to me it felt holy the work that you do and the art that you bring and the way you express your own experience and it's so relatable I had people in this crowd who come from a very wide swath of ideologies and experiences and everyone expressed as they were leaving like thank you so much for making this happen this was a gift like a true gift so thanks yeah thank you that means a lot yeah yeah and so when I first heard your song which the listeners I've probably talked about this song before but if not we're gonna absolutely play it a little later Plowshare Prayer it kind of it hit me in a way that I think music is meant to hit us because I felt so heard by the way you express the angst of our experience the way you express the longing for I don't know I don't want to put words in your mouth but to me it felt like longing for blessing and goodness to come about even through the tragedy we experience as humans on this planet and so it just made me want to know as much about you as I possibly could

Yeah that song's really special to me. That song came, like, chose me more than I chose the song, if that makes sense. I think I just had my antenna up at the right time. I was writing a song a week for this congregation in Denver, Colorado.

Okay.

and for their church services. And I knew that I was going to be quitting church work very soon. I was preparing for a move to Boston, like a life transition. So I knew I'd be stepping away from institutional church work.

I thought, I'll take this opportunity to be done because I'm feeling really burnt out. I was especially having trouble at this particular job, writing songs every week. I know that some people, some songwriters can write things they don't necessarily believe in.

I think that's a skill. I probably could do it, but I was having the hardest time doing it for this congregation. I cared about them and wanted to give them songs that they could really believe in and sing with their whole hearts.

But I couldn't sing the songs with my whole heart. And so I was feeling really disconnected from my songs. And that's sort of a signifier that something needs to change for me. I need to be connected to the song.

So anyway, they were coming over in this prayer service and they asked me to write a song for the prayer service. And prayer, at least formal prayer of that kind, wasn't part of my practice anymore. So I thought like, oh shit, how am I gonna write for them?

Like, what am I gonna write for them? And it ended up being the last song that I wrote for them before stepping away. But I was out walking my dog and the line came to me. I pray that if you go all day being brave, that you can go home, go to bed feeling safe.

Because I fell, I mean, it was 2021. It was like a whole lot of bravery going on and me being like a queer person like coming into my own trans body as well. I was just like, I just feel like every time I step outside I had to be so brave, so flipping brave.

And all I wanna do is go home and just lay my head down. And all I want, especially for my trans femme friends as well, harder for them to be safe when they're out in public. I just want them to go home and like, even if the day is hard, I want them to have a place that they can feel good and cozy.

And I'm like, that's something I can pray for with my whole heart. And I was like, what else can I pray for with my whole heart? And so I just started listing things and the song came about. But it came about in like a day.

It was very cool.

Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's something that struck me about it when I first heard it. And I almost feel like I want to play it right now so everybody can know, but I want to save it to the end.

So you'll have to like, if you want to know right now, pause this podcast and go listen to Plowshare prayer and then come back. But it is coming up at the end. When I first heard it, I was like, okay, this feels like the most authentic prayer coming from within you that in my language, I talk a lot about parts work, like internal family systems, right?

I've done some therapy around that. And so I talk a lot about when everyone in me agrees with something, it's like a whole self, like nobody's got an objection to what I'm saying right now. And so it feels like every part of myself says, yes, this is what is true and good for us.

And nobody's going, wait, this doesn't work for me, right? So there's no kind of angst about what I'm putting out there, whether or not it's actually true for me. And so when I first heard your song, and so everybody knows my therapist said, you know, I was dealing with something and I don't even remember what it was, but he goes, Hey, hang on, you've got to hear this song.

And he played it. And every part of me went, yes, to all of that. And so that's why I started following you. And they felt aligned. It felt aligned. It felt totally genuine and authentic. And like, I could sense that it was coming from the deepest place in you.

And so, yeah, that's how, that's how I learned about you.

Thank you for sharing that. I love, no one's explained it to me that way before. Really? That that song, yeah, that it feels aligned like every part of yourself, like an in chorus in unison can be like, yes.

Right. You know, that feels correct. Yeah, I think, I geek out about songwriting and like how songs, we find songs or like they come to us and the thing that comes, the lightning that strikes is usually like a line or a feeling, you know, like of, and each of the lines in that song were like a feeling or a concept.

And I think like the crafts person in me, like did the work to make it aligned with every part. So like, there's a line about kids growing up scared of guns and where I come from, my orientation to the world, I, in any other song might sing that differently.

I might sing something that's anti-gun, but I was very, very intentional in this particular song. I was like, this has to be a prayer for every part of ourself, right? And so what can every part of ourself get on board with?

The kids not being scared of guns. Okay, that's how I have to say it. You know what I mean? The posture has to be different. And so I went through with a fine tooth comb, every line to be like, okay, can everybody get behind the way that I'm saying that?

Yes. Play a little bit of politician there, I suppose.

Well, and it's so interesting because how it comes through, for me, is very much that there's nothing to be argued or parsed out, like, well, I don't agree with this. I was listening to one of the people in my master's program talking about how on any side of any conflict, the one thing that everyone always can agree on is we don't want violence for the future of our children.

Yeah. Everybody, no matter how, what's the word where it's just, like, awful, but no matter how contentious the conflict, everyone has in mind, let's make a world where our children don't have to have the legacy of violence that we currently are living in.

And so that's what I'm getting from this song is, yeah, the way you crafted it, or the way it came through you, however you would say that, is such a way that I just, yeah, there was no part of me that was like, well, I don't know about this or that.

It's like, there's no cognitive dissonance when you're talking about the experience of people, children scared of guns, mothers raising little black sons. The whole experience is just so reverent and holy to me because it's so real.

Yeah, thank you. Yeah.

and it says something about you that you got that. There are like a select few people in the world who don't resonate with the song. And it's because they get defensive of some of those lines. And my mom and I had a conversation about this.

She's like, well, you know, so-and-so has trouble with that song. And the first time I heard that from her, I was like, oh, what? But I worked so hard, like I tried so hard to make it so that no one would be offended and or no one would be able to argue against the things that I'm wishing for humanity in this song.

But as she and I talked about it, we kind of realized that like, okay, the people who have an issue with it don't actually have an issue with what the song says. They are reading between the lines, you know, and something in them is feeling called out.

And that's tough. You know what I mean? There's a part of them that's like, you know, like mothers of little black sons, there's a part of them that's like, what about my son? And then they feel uncomfortable about that.

They feel uncomfortable about that because I think that there's a part of them that realizes, well, the songwriter didn't say, my son doesn't matter.

so there's this cognitive dissonance and maybe within themselves there's this part that's you know hollering for this sort of treatment but then somebody else within them is like hmm what about this

And that's uncomfortable. We don't want to listen to songs and feel cognitively dissonant. Yeah. So it is sort of a litmus test.

Yeah, well that's an interesting point to consider now. Cognitive dissonance, because I was thinking about that throughout the set that you played last night. It seems like your journey thus far has been about making your life and therefore the art that you produce totally authentic and getting rid of things that do not align with, I don't know if you would use the words, your purpose in this world,

but that it seems that you have a lot of your lyrics revolve around authenticity being true to yourself and getting rid of something that doesn't fit anymore. And so I was listening to how you talked about your story and some of the things you've walked through in the more recent years thinking, oh wow, you are a person who, it seems like you must have decided, I am going to only do what is true and right and get rid of things that do not fit anymore.

Yeah, I think it's

aspirational too. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I'm 31, you know? Like, I'm sure there's stuff I need to shred, still. And my songs, like, know it before I do, you know? I'm quote-unquote preaching with these songs and need to listen to my own sermon.

But like, yeah, the songs know me more than I know the songs. So being the parent of the kid too, you know what I mean? Like, at a certain point they teach you. Yeah. And yeah, so I'm coming to a place with my songs, especially that collection of songs that I played at the concert last night where I am having to sit back and listen to what they're telling me.

Yeah. And it is creating shifts in my life.

So can we talk about surgery? Yes, please. Oh, such a beautiful song. Okay, so we're gonna play that for everybody in just a minute. What led to this song coming out through you?

I was coming up on getting gender-affirming top surgery and I think along with so much of the population and so much of the cultural conversation right now, I was learning how to love my body no matter what.

Really trying to fall in love with my body again. And then I was just sort of looking sideways at myself as I was coming up on a surgery where I was choosing to remove part of that body and thinking about what that means.

I feel so deeply right to do this, but why? Like it's my body, there's nothing wrong with my body. So I was doing a lot of thinking about that and just came to realize that the way we relate to our bodies is the same as we relate to people in our lives and communities of faith and families and partners.

It's all the same in that many times in times of conflict, the most loving thing to do is to work really hard to make it work, like go to therapy and have the hard conversations. That's all well and good, but sometimes, and like we only know this when we listen to ourselves and no one else could know it for us, we have to know it ourselves, but sometimes the most loving thing that we can do is like cut it off,

so to speak. And I tell that story at shows and I get a little giggle, but by the end of the, and it's sort of, there's humor in the song too, but like by the end of the song, I think people, it ends with I know, I know what I need, I know, I know what I need, I know, I know what I need.

And by the end of the song, I think people really get it and resonate because I mean, that's a mantra, whether or not I believe that, it's something I want for myself to know what I need.

Yes. And when we say this repeatedly, we begin to believe it and then it begins to become true. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So let's listen to surgery and then I want to talk about ways in which we have both found the need to do.

Yeah, I was going to ask you. Metaphysical surgery in our own lives. I was going to ask you. Yeah. Okay. All right. So here is surgery by Spencer LaJoye.

Did a lot of yoga three years ago Read a book for my inner untamed little girl Found a podcast to laugh for no reason And a doctor who knows all my demons I'm coming back to my body I don't love it yet But damn it, I'm trying Every mirror gets kinder to me But I know, I know what I need It's not heart's work Group therapy, meditation Or repair and dew It's surgery One more whiskey for sleepin' We're surviving on weak anesthesia Put me under,

I need the procedure Something hard to make everything easier We've done a lot of good work to make peace But I know, I know what I need It's not patience More family, a vacation A couple's retreat It's surgery Try to be grateful, try to be faithful Try to compare with a much dimmer fate But the surgery is set now I want to feel better And I'm more myself without you I'm coming back to my body I don't love it yet But damn it,

I'm trying And I know I know what I need. I know I know what I need. I know I know what I need. I know I know what I need.

I have so many thoughts, at least, yeah, yeah, I wanna hear from you. So, yeah, as I was listening to that, I'm thinking of people in my life who have gone through the journey of listening in and saying I know what I need and made hard choices, myself included, like I need to cut this out of my life.

And that's such a terrifying thing for us to do, to actually allow for something to be severed. It's really scary and it feels almost like we've been conditioned, no, find a way to make it work, like find a way to stay in the relationship or keep going, we don't quit, we don't give up.

But sometimes what we're finding is we're in the middle of a situation and there is no fix other than getting out of that situation. Sometimes that's the only way to keep breathing. Yeah, yeah, and that is terrifying to consider what might my life look like if I let go of this thing, whatever it is that comes to your mind that either past, present, or maybe in the future is asking for release in your life.

But it is a scary thing. How can you talk me through a little bit that journey for you, deciding to get top surgery? What a brave decision that was. How did you even become okay with that?

I ignored it for a long time. I remember when I was first coming to terms with my own transness and being non-binary. And it was such, I want everybody to have that process. And everybody can, actually.

Why am I the gender that I am? What does it mean to me to be this or not this? And why? Like, why am I a woman? Why am I a man? Why am I non-binary? Why am I, like, what is that feeling? What makes me that, you know?

And I was going through that. I remember talking to my best friend and being like, Izzy, I feel really ambivalent about my boobs. And she was like, okay, baby, tell me more about that. And I was like, I don't know if I can.

Okay. She's like, would you try, like, wearing a binder just to see with it? And so, like, a binder is like a piece of clothing, right, that, like, sort of conceals the fact that you have a chest, you know?

And I was like, no, no, no, no, I don't need to do that. I don't need to do that. And, like, cut to like a month later and I had a binder and I wore it. And it felt incredible, you know? I was like, oh, well, they didn't feel incredible.

They're very tight. I mean, that sounds constructive, but yeah. But it looked amazing. And I just, like, cried. I, like, tried on every shirt in my closet with the binder on and I just cried in front of the mirror.

And I was like, oh. I didn't know what the alternative was because I was always over one thing. It's like, okay, so that's an option looking a different way. So I wore a binder for a few years. Was just so scared to finally go through with the surgery, but it was so right by the time that I, you know, was buying clothes and walking through the world as though I had no chest.

And it just, yeah, growing more comfortable with that alternative that I didn't know I had until I tried. Yeah.

That's the story. So there was some freedom there and it was kind of in increments like let me try this out. Yeah. Right like we were talking about this morning maybe instead of saying no more violence like less violence like let's do this in in increments that are manageable and then walking toward like how we need to be in the world.

Because it's so scary, and I might even say impossible to imagine a new way, if we don't have a template for it. I didn't have a template for what my life would be like or what I would feel like with a different body, and I had to test the waters and test it out.

I think the same is true with, like, you mentioned ending of relationships and also cutting ties with communities and the faiths and religions, and I've been through that. It's the same. It's like sometimes we just are there because we don't know anything else.

We don't have a template for what does it look like to have a different experience.

We don't have an imagination for it, you know? So we almost need to be given permission, give ourselves permission to just imagine something else. And I think that the story we're told, like you were saying before, is like trying to make it work, like put in the work, make it work.

Right. Like that's the highest good. And there's, I mean, maybe a little bit of truth to that. Sure, yeah. But sometimes it's a cop-out, I think, for like seeing what's possible if we don't. And also there's a narrative that says that's an easy out, that quitting is an easy out.

But I would offer that quitting is sometimes like the hardest decision we can make.

and the most necessary, right? Do you ever listen to Glennon Doyle? She has a whole thing on be good at quitting. Like, know when something is not working. Yeah, let's just send all the love to Glennon.

What, I'm curious, this is sort of personal, so feel free to answer this, however seems best. What did you run into when you made the decision, were there immediate consequences that were really hard that you walked into with like, this is what I'm going to do, were there things that you had to give up in addition in order to be authentically yourself?

Yeah.

Yeah, yes, yes, and I, well, all the answers, I'll keep some of it to myself. Yeah, sure. But I can talk to you about it later. Okay, okay. I don't know if anything's in this podcast.

Who's out there anyway?

No. Yeah, I mean, by the time I got to the surgery, I was really prepared and really ready. But they prepare you, they, communities and support groups out there, people who have been through the surgery before, they all talk about how you might have fear, regret, immediately following, because it's a major surgery and your body's gone through a trauma, so you come out of it and you're just like, what the hell have I just done?

Yeah. All I feel is pain. And I will say, when I came out of it, I had a severed relationship with my creativity when I came out of it. And I had to learn that my creativity lives in my body. That was how I learned that, was coming out of that surgery and being bound, because my chest was bound for weeks and weeks and weeks.

And it was numb, and it's still pretty numb, actually, where the scar tissue is. But that, you know, and I kept saying, at least before, when I had this chest, I didn't have a loving relationship with my chest, but I had a relationship.

I knew who and what my body was, you know? I had a relationship with that part of my body, and now I can't access it. It's just a surgical site. I don't know what this is. I can't access my body right now.

That was so hard, that was so sad to me. And so I didn't regret the surgery, but I had this grief over a relationship with my body. I was like, who are you? What are you? I can't feel you, I can't even look at you, unless I'm unwrapping to do cleaning of the wounds, and then I wrap back up again.

This is so clinical, so surgical. Who is my body? And I couldn't write songs. I had jobs, I had to co-writes, I had to crank out, and I was awful. I hated the songs I was writing. I was like, these aren't even true.

I feel so disconnected. So, it was awful. But then I will say, as soon as I got the bindings off and I got to put a shirt on, for the first time, no bindings there. Just the shirt on, bare skin. Just sobbed, cried, welcome to my body home.

I was like, that was worth it. Okay. That was worth it.

sorry. Spencer this is so powerful so I'm thinking as you're talking like everything that you're saying about your relationship to your flesh is applicable to when we have to make a hard choice to do surgery on any aspect of our lives that needs to go right there is that aspect of like you mentioned leaving a relationship or a faith community or maybe a vocation or form of employment or a friendship or anything that we finally decide this does not belong to me anymore I cannot continue in good faith walking forward and saying this is part of my life because it isn't and so when we when we make the hard choice and we sever that then we do go through this time of like oh no what have I done where's my identity wasn't there a piece of my identity in that other relationship or experience and then who am I without it did I really think this through maybe I need that part of myself and so there's this kind of like angst period until maybe we metaphorically put on the shirt over our newly healed body and go oh I am home and myself oh that was the right thing

I knew the whole time. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I love that. I love that. I actually had not, hmm, fascinating. Yeah. I'd only ever thought about my song, that song, up until the time of surgery, like making the decision.

I actually hadn't thought about the healing process from surgery. Wow. That's very applicable to my life right now. Thank you. Yeah.

I have certainly experienced some of that myself and I know firsthand the angst of who am I without this person or this particular brand of faith or this ideology or this whatever descriptor that we take on as part of our identity and then doing the work of recognizing who we are just on our own two feet.

And I think that's that's what I'm most excited about right now for my own journey is getting rid of the things that no longer serve that I cannot with my whole self and every part of myself go yes that then authentically saying this thing doesn't actually serve me and it's it's not a case of getting rid of the baby with the bathwater.

I often like to say in my in my spiritual journey my faith journey I have not thrown out the baby Jesus with the bathwater but not a lot of the bathwater I really like Jesus we get along so well. But but getting rid of the things that absolutely do not fit anymore and I know there's a lot of criticism with like oh don't just go along by your feelings but I am learning to listen in to all parts of myself and and and really into it what doesn't fit what is not authentic what's not true coming out of me anymore and maybe I need to consider some surgical procedure to walk away from this yeah whatever it happens to be yeah feeling

Those are like the most stubborn things, feelings, you know, I think that we see them as fleeting but I see them as so stubborn, like I can't change them.

Right.

I can't will them away. I need to befriend them, otherwise, you know, I'm screwed. That's the one thing that, I mean, again, I'm only 31, but if I know one thing to be true it's that my feelings are gonna feel, and I have no say, I have no say.

But to learn from them, accept them, bless them.

Yes. And like you said, to befriend them, one of my favorite authors, Padraig O'Tuama, yeah, he writes in The Shelter, he always says hello to whatever emotion is servicing. He says hello to sadness, hello to grief, hello to joy, hello to whatever.

And I have learned to incorporate that into my life when I'm experiencing some kind of feeling just to greet it, acknowledge it's there. I don't have to let it take over. I don't have to let it make decisions for me.

You know, there's more to me than just my feelings. But I am done living in a way that requires me to ignore my feelings. Good for you. Yeah. When did you come to that? It has been a process. So I went through a divorce in 2016.

And since then, it's been kind of a wonky wobbly experience. Going through some mental illness and some deep grief and loss. But I have kept finding really important guides and friends along the way that have been teaching me about honoring that what I am, who I am is not bad.

So there's been a shift in my theology, because, you know, as you probably are familiar with, lots of us are raised with the original sin. Like we're bad and we needed fixing, which is a Genesis 3 rendering of, you know, our experience.

But if you really start in Genesis 1 and you find we are, you know, in that story or myth or whatever you want to call it, we're originally blessed and there is a God spark in each of us, then there must be something holy about us.

And there must be something good, regardless of whatever happened with the fruit in the garden. Okay. But finding that I am at my core, good, love, right? That has made the whole difference. It's enabled me to truly love myself.

Like we were saying this morning over breakfast, like that's the thing. Can you first love yourself because you're not going to be successful loving the world, being helpful if you don't already love yourself, right?

Mm-hmm. That used to be my tagline. I went to Calvin University for my alma mater, and they're Calvinist, and they're big on, yeah, that whole original sin, that whole, like, you, there's nothing you can do to escape, like, the filth of your humanity, like, you are bad.

And somehow, somehow they get around, they get around to the fact that that's a good thing, because that means that, you know, the only thing good in you is God.

and it keeps you humble, like that's part of the value system.

But then I learned that the worse I felt about myself, the closer I was to God. And that, so I started equating shame and God. Ew! I know, it was really awful, right? So, I've had to really shift that line to my theological anthropology, right?

Uh-huh, yeah. And I shifted that in grad school and I was getting my MDiv. And I just kind of realized, I was like, oh my gosh, it makes so much more sense. So much more, I feel so much more aligned.

The chorus of voices of family members within me say amen when I say, I'm made of the good stuff and you're made of the good stuff and we're all made of the good stuff. And look at the world and look at the earth.

Isn't it all good stuff? Wow, that feels so much more right and so much less mind twisty. I don't actually have to work to get around that. Yeah, like that makes so much sense.

Yes, something deep, deep, deep within us embedded in our core goes, that's right, that's right.

And where it's wrong, where we feel guilt and shame and things go awry, then we grieve those things, and we learn more of those things, and we ask for forgiveness from the earth and each other for those things.

And we learn from these things. Yeah, that just makes so much more sense. It's all a no-brainer.

It is all a no brainer. Okay. So the next song that's coming to you that you played, no, no, sorry. This is exactly right. Shadow puppets, right? Because it takes some time and, and distance from those things that bring us shame or pain to be able to see them in full relief as the shadow is cast against the wall and realize, okay, I was doing the best I could, I was dealing with what I had, forgiving myself,

forgiving the people in the equation and living with an open heart and a little bit of humor, maybe like, Oh, look at me back then trying my best. It's a beautiful way to conceptualize this. So how do you introduce this song?

I loved how you said, yeah.

Yeah, I ask people if they've made a shadow puppet with their hands before. I love that you liked the song, so that means a lot to me. It's very dense, image-wise, and it doesn't make the most sense, but it introduces the album, and then there are images throughout the album that are called back in the song.

But anyway, I'm talking about shadow puppets and how if your hands, when you're making a shadow puppet, are too close to the light source, the shadow you cast is not a real shape, it's just a big dark blob on the opposite wall.

But if you create some space between your hands and the light source, then you start to make a shape, like a bird or something. And that is how I think about my past now, and my past self, and events from my past.

When I'm too close to them, they're going to be dark and confusing and hard to wrap around. But with a little time and space, I find myself, that's the gift of retrospect, being able to look back and make sense of them, or see them with some clarity and, God forbid, some compassion.

Like, oh, that's just a bird. Look at that. That's not so funny.

Oh, there that is. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's hear shadow puppets and then see what comes next.

We're prepared to lose power Every candle collected Tub full of water Street siren Use anger Go silent The basement Space beneath the staircase Is a playhouse and a stage By the spotlight Of the tallest burning wick She writes A plot line with her palms and fingers twisting I give it a shot But all that I got Is a shadow so big A shadow so wide It's a darkness I could fit my whole self inside She says Just pull away Away from the flame Now it's a shape you can make with your hand Just an owl coming to land Just a monster You can understand I go away with my words And I use them to run you into the woods Past the curve of our street Jump the curb in the weeds Find you curled beneath a dead tree Say you hurt because of me By the spotlight Of a blazing August sun You rise up the line In my veins I turn out to run But I give it a shot Give it all that I got That shadow is big That shadow is wide It's a darkness I could fit my whole self inside But when I pull away Away from the flame It's a shape I can make with my hand Just a woman sinking in sand Just a monster I can understand Just a broken commandment A wooden spoon A shaking hand Just a kiss in the back of a car Brand new Bible Steady armed Just an addict Playing the piano And a kid praying up to the stars As another looks at her shadows And can't understand who they are That shadow is big That shadow is wide It's a darkness That I fit my whole self inside But when I pull away Away from the flame It's a shape I can make with my hand I was coming to land People sinking in sand I can understand

I'm glad that you liked that one.

That means a lot to me.

I just oh it grabbed me and and I guess I spend a lot of time walking into greeting the emotions I have about my past actions, decisions, expressions of myself and that really spoke to me because it's like it it offers me the opportunity to hold all that gently and see the person that I was the person that I was not yet who I was becoming and yeah having some real compassion for myself in times past that I just shake my head at and go oh my goodness what was I thinking yeah or what was I not thinking but there's permission there to be loving even to those past versions of myself yeah and see how it it is all gonna be okay she's doing her best yeah what she knew that's right that's right given the circumstance the genetics oh yeah all that we carry the ancestral memory yeah she was doing her best and I can love her and I can offer her grace and forgiveness and I can grow and I can learn yeah yeah I spend a considerable amount of time kind of thinking about that past self that one that makes me just shake my head and I am learning to offer her so much grace yeah

And if I can also offer, like, just because there was learning and growing to do doesn't mean that being in that place when we were in that place was inherently bad or that there's something, right, that we shouldn't offer compassion for, you know, sometimes, you know, like I said, it's the best we can do at the time, it's the best we have, the best we know.

Right. Yeah.

You know, we're so, at least I have been, I'll speak from personal experience, I've been raised to and acculturated to give so much grace and compassion to other people in the midst of their really difficult situations, right?

And I would never let somebody in my presence say terribly disparaging things about themselves. I would say, hey, hold on, hold on, let's be gentle, like you're going through a really hard time, like give yourself some grace here.

And yet, I learned from an early age to be so hard on my own self and demand perfection, which I'd love to talk about that word with you for a minute, as a theologian. Okay, so I've just been thinking about this part, I think it's in the Sermon on the Mount, but don't hold me to that.

I will. Okay, okay. Where Jesus says, treat other people really well and he's giving all of these things, and then he ends with, so be perfect, like your Father in Heaven is perfect. And Christianity gets its panties in a bunch about like, let's be perfect then, meaning let's be without sin, let's be blameless, righteous, and let's not have any flaws.

But I learned recently, and you can tell me, did you study Greek? Oh, only a little bit, actually. Okay, well I have not yet studied biblical languages and I don't know if I ever will, but somebody smarter than me with a better degree than I have said that the translation there is that the word perfect means fully mature.

And that it carries with it the idea of being holy, W-H-O-L-L-Y, holy one's self. And that right before that, Jesus had said, look, your Father in Heaven sends the rain on everybody in the world, and sends the sun on everybody in the world and doesn't show favoritism, and so be perfect like God.

And so I had spent so much time striving for, let me be perfect, which means with no sin and no error, when really the whole point is like, love everyone equally and be mature. Be compassionate.

No matter what. Yeah! No matter who you're dealing with.

especially as it relates to myself. Weird. Be compassionate to myself. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Whoa. So what do you think about that? A game changer.

Right. I love that. Yeah, and I believe them that that is the translation. Yeah Yeah Be mature be yes be full

be whole. Don't be partial and giving love and compassion to these folks over here but not to these folks over here, right?

Don't just love the parts of yourself that are easy to love. Love the parts of yourself that are a little tough for you to grab.

for you.

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

Right. My best friend, I've talked about him so much over the last two days. He keeps coming up. I love this guy. He keeps calling up Kyle. Kyle, we love you. We love Kyle. We were grocery shopping the other day, and he, I said something nice to myself.

I don't remember what it was. And he just put his hand on my back, and he goes, thanks for being nice to my friend. Oh, good job. Yes. And I was like, but it's that. I think that we need Kyle's. We need to do that for ourselves, too.

Congratulate ourselves. Hey, good job being perfect in this moment. I kind of actually love that. I think I might say to myself, that was perfect.

That was perfect. And now you know it means like undivided whole mature, right?

Yeah, you know, I remember the first time because this shift for and for me it was coming out as non-binary that shifting a lot of things like putting into alignment things and like it was just a clear lens it was like all of a sudden my barometer or my yeah my barometer for what's true is different and I don't settle for anything else.

I remember I was driving one day and I did something, a bad maneuver and I said something really mean to myself just so small but I was mean to myself and I think I called myself an idiot and I started crying because I hadn't been mean to myself in so long.

And it felt so wrong. I was like, why would I say that to myself? That was so mean, you know, and that was sort of big for me and then I started laughing. Right.

And then you can let that go and forgive yourself for the meanness in that moment and also appreciate how far you've come because you're no longer numb to that because now that feels totally stark and wrong, whereas maybe, I don't know for your experience, but for mine, yeah, for a long, long time, I was just like almost necessarily mean to myself because that's how I kept myself in line, right?

And kept myself perfect because that's what I thought I needed to be. Right. Yeah. You're closer to God. Yeah. That way. Yeah. Oh, and poor God is, you know, up there and within us and all around just shaking God's head going, oh, that is not loving.

I do not want you talking to yourself that way. I would never speak to you that way.

She's like, that wasn't me, stop. Putting words in my mouth.

Right? So my mother passed away when I was 30. And there's a whole lot there. I just miss her. And I had an opportunity one time not long ago to imagine what I would say to her if she were here still.

If she could like come back to life and just get a glimpse of my life now. She was gone before my second daughter was born. She was gone before my marriage fell apart. She was gone before I had a mental breakdown.

Like she missed the whole the hard part. Well okay my daughter being born was not the hard part but all the other things I just mentioned were the hard things. She didn't get to witness that and that's a sadness for me.

So I was imagining I had this conversation in my head what I would say to her if she were here. And I thought if I only had a few moments to talk to my mom here's what I would tell her. Mom I am really good to myself now.

You can rest assured that I love me. And that you did a great job because you taught me to be myself. And I love myself now. I haven't always I haven't always taken good care of myself. I've been mean to myself.

But I am now at a place where I can honestly tell you I'm good to me. And I thought as a mother that would be my favorite thing to hear my daughter say. Right. Yeah. Yeah I like myself. I love myself.

I am undivided to myself. Yeah.

I'm so glad you got to say that yeah

It felt really good to be able to express that.

Mm hmm.

So as we consider our past selves, the people that we have been, the versions of ourselves that, you know, maybe like the 2.0 and 3.0 and here we are in the 15.0, I don't know. You have a song about what you would say to your past self.

Please, let's talk about that.

I was driving through Harvard Square a couple years ago and I saw this group of young women standing on the corner, it was like the evening, right after, it was like fall in Harvard Square, which is beautiful and fun and hopping and the school year just started.

This group of young women standing on the corner in their going out outfits, you know? Yeah, they're dressed up. Right, and one of them just had her arms crossed in front of her and was kind of slouched, was like laughing along with what people were saying, but I like looked at her and I totally projected my own experience onto her, which is fine.

As we do. That's what the world is for, just a songwriter's projections and I was like, oh my God, I recognize that, and immediately just felt filled with compassion for that, that self, and immediately it was just like, I wanna jump out of this car, take you by the shoulders, look you in the eye and be like someday you're gonna wake up and feel so much different than this.

It's not always gonna be like this. You gotta do this right now, you know? You gotta be here now. You gotta be here now, but I'm telling you now, 10 years into the future, it doesn't always feel like this.

I just wanna jump out of my car. So then I went home and wrote this song to my younger self. To your younger self? Yeah, to tell them someday it's different, someday you'll wake up okay, yeah.

Wow, when I was going through my mental health episode, my dad would call me every day. And it's interesting how at that point in my life, a lot of people fell away from my life. Like it just, I don't know if they didn't know how to relate to me or how to support me.

And so they just stayed away. But my dad, he came through and he called me every day. And he told me, hun, there are better days ahead. Wow. And I couldn't believe that for myself. But there was a part of me that heard truth in what he was saying.

And I let him have faith for me. I just surfed on his hope. I wrote a chapter about this that may come into a memoir one day called Borrowed Hope. And I could allow his words to carry me when I couldn't believe that they were true.

That there were better days ahead. And now I can look back and tell that former self, yep, he was right. There are better days ahead. I'm living in them now. And hold on, because it gets better. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Hold on because it gets better. And I mean, the bridge of this song is, you won't believe it if I tell you now, just entertain the possibility somehow. You'll never see it coming, never see it becoming this way, but someday you'll wake up okay.

And I thought it was really important to say it's like, it's not a promise actually. It's only a possibility, that's all we ever have. With the future, you know what I mean? It's like, when we're looking into the future, when we're looking into the past, we can promise them all sorts of things.

But when we're looking into the future, it's like, yeah, I don't know. We can't promise it. But entertaining the possibility, that's what we can do. That's what we can do. It's like, hang on a possibility.

Yeah, that gets me up sometimes.

Oh, I love it, okay. Remind me the name of the song? Some day you'll wake up OK.

Okay. Okay. Yeah.

College town, post Halloween, 20-somethings remembering they signed up to be something. Whatever happens, you're gonna be all right. You're gonna be all right. It's possible. It'll happen. You're gonna wake up feeling better. It's gonna feel better. It's possible. Bedroom floor 2008.

Love the Lord your soul to save. Cry the sinner's prayer out the window. See the crossing stars as a symbol. So many ways to hate yourself. Feel something good from the shoulders down. It's morning grace.

It's addiction. It's a transformation prescription. I see you pulling at the sweater on your shoulders. You're acting so much older than you need to. No one told you that's not freedom. You won't hear me, but I'll think it from the future.

I'll believe enough for you. It's possible. Whatever happens, you're gonna be all right. You're gonna be all right. It's possible. It'll happen. You're gonna wake up feeling better. It's gonna feel better.

It's possible. You won't believe it if I tell you now. Just entertain the possibilities. Somehow you'll never see it coming. Never see it becoming this way. But someday you'll wake up okay. You won't believe it if I tell you now.

Just entertain the possibilities. Somehow you'll never see it coming. Never see it becoming this way. But someday you'll wake up okay. You won't believe it if I tell you now. Just entertain the possibilities.

Somehow you'll never see it coming. Never see it becoming this way. But someday you'll wake up okay. You won't believe it if I tell you now. Just entertain the possibilities. Somehow you'll never see it coming.

Never see it becoming this way. But someday you'll wake up okay. It'll happen. You're gonna wake up feeling better. It's gonna feel better. It's possible. But someday you'll wake up okay.

That is the medicine the world needs. Thank you. Thanks. Thanks.

Yeah. Oof. I'm glad we got to listen to the whole thing, because I cut out a verse when I do that live. Oh, you do? Okay, okay.

inverse yeah but oh that's fun that's fun and yeah if I could say anything to the world right now you know hold on like it's possible that this gets a whole lot better and you know let it be known that we're recording this just a couple weeks ahead of the US election and everybody's nervous and maybe if we can believe it's possible things do get better

Right, it'll keep us hanging on, keep us putting forth an effort to. Right, yeah. Yeah, because I think it's different for me. I have a hard time holding on to hope, this is what we talked about for breakfast, but I can hold on to possibility.

I don't know why it's different for me. I'm just like, no, you don't have to put your heart into it. Okay. Just, you know what I mean? You don't have to convince your body to feel something it doesn't feel, but just with your brain, just be like, it is a possibility.

There's always a chance. There's always a chance. Right? You gotta keep working, because there's the chance.

chance I like that like relying on your cerebral cortex that's got such a great imagination I know and can foresee things that maybe the rest of you just is like nah that's never gonna happen but we can lean into that and and yeah have maybe it's not hope maybe it is just a belief in possibility that can carry us because hope feels scary right yeah don't want to get our hopes up but believing in the possibility of goodness of things somehow working out maybe allows for the things to work out in some metaphysical metaphysical way that I don't understand at all

Well, it also just puts my feet on the ground, like in a very real way, you know, it gets me to keep moving, you know.

Yeah. Oh, that's good. Let it be so. Let us have the belief in the possibility of goodness. Yeah. For ourselves, for our communities, for our nation, for our world, for our planet. Yeah. And it extends outward.

Yeah. Well, speaking of Amen. Yeah. Oh, right. As I told you yesterday at the end of every song, I was like, Amen. But this was so holy. I cannot use any other language to describe it. So let's end with the Plowshare prayer.

And is there anything you would want to say? Nothing more.

about it at the beginning. Yeah. Okay. Just let it take us out.

Thank you for being here. This has been a, oh, I'm struggling to find the right word. Deeply deeply meaningful experience getting to know you and healing in them in listening to some of your lyrics. Coming into contact with you as a person.

Yeah, just a highlight for me.

likewise honestly yeah yeah you're a gift is it to the earth and to your community and I hope you keep being gift to yourself too maybe I'll be

a gift to ourself. All right folks, I hope you enjoy this as much as I do. Crank it up. Here is the song that plays in my head every single day. I don't know if I told you this, but every morning I wake up and this song is in my head.

So here is Plowshare Prayer.

Dear Blessed Creator, dear Mother, dear Savior, dear Father, dear Brother, dear Holy Other, dear sibling, dear baby, dear patiently awaiting dear sad and confused, dear stuck and abused, dear end of your rope, dear worn out and broke, dear go-it-alone, dear running from home, dear righteously angry, forsaken by family, dear jaded and quiet, dear tough and defiant, I pray that I'm heard, and I pray that this works,

I pray if a prayer has been used as a sword against you and your heart against you and your word, I pray that this prayer is a plowshare of sorts, that it might break you often, it might help you grow, I pray that your body gets all that it needs, and if you don't want healing, I just pray for peace, I pray that your burden gets lighter each day, I pray the mean voice in your head goes away, I pray that you honor the grief as it comes,

I pray you can feel all the life in your lungs, I pray that if you go all day being brave, that you can go home and go to bed feeling safe, I pray you're forgiven, I pray you forgive, I pray you set boundaries and openly live, I pray that you feel you are worth never leaving, I pray that you know I will always believe you, I pray that you're heard, and I pray that this works, Amen on behalf of the last and the least,

on behalf of the anxious, depressed and unseen, amen for the workers, the hungry, the houseless, amen for the lonely and recently spouseless, amen for the queers and their closeted peers, amen for the bullied who hold in their tears, amen for the mothers of the little black sons, amen for the kids who grow up, scared of guns, amen for the addicts who shamed and hungover, amen for the callous, the wise and the sober,

amen for the ones who want life to be over, amen for the leaders who lose their composure, amen for the parents who just lost their baby, amen for the chronically ill and disabled, amen for the children down at the border, amen for the victims of our law and order, amen and I pray that this works I pray if a prayer has been used as a sword against you and your heart against you and your word,

I pray that this prayer is a plowshare of sorts.