Episode 10 - John Hatfield Sings and Brings All the Things

Singer-songwriter John Hatfield brings his rich, meaningful tunes and musings about non-violence, suffering, and the Divine Feminine.

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Transcript

Hello! Welcome to Barely Christian, Fully Christian. This is Anni Ponder. This podcast explores loving Jesus, being repulsed by much of Christianity, and relating to the Holy Spirit as the divine feminine, or as I prefer to call her, Mama God.

Today I'm talking with singer-songwriter John Hatfield. We'll hear some of his beautiful music and you'll hear themes of peacemaking and non-violence, along with elevating the voice of the feminine within the church and finding Mama God.

Welcome.

Hello, John Hatfield, and welcome. I am so thrilled to talk with you today. Thank you for being here.

Hi, Anni. Thanks for having me.

Yeah. For anybody who hasn't yet heard of this singer-songwriter, John Hatfield first came on my radar when actually a teacher of his, and I'll let him talk about that, posted something on Instagram, posted this incredible song, and it caught my attention.

It gave me full-body goosebumps and made me want to get to know you right away. And so that's how I first came to know about you. So John Hatfield is studying... Well, let me have you talk about this because I think it's so beautiful.

Yeah, I'm studying theology and culture in a master's program at St. Stephen's University in New Brunswick, Canada. And that teacher that you referenced is Bradley Jerzak, who is the author of Out of the Embers, I think is the book that you have by him.

And so Bradley was kind enough to repost a song that I had written on his Instagram, and that found its way to you.

That's right. Yes. And I just absolutely... What is a good word here? Appreciate doesn't seem strong enough, but I'm so, so glad to have had conversations with Bradley and hear his take on many, many things, his very well-informed theological take. And so when he put you out into the world for me to hear I was like, I got to know who this guy is.

So tell me more about this theology and culture with the emphasis that you were speaking of.

Yeah. So St. Stephen's has what I think is a really unique delivery for their master's program. And I first became aware of it back in 2020. I was looking for a graduate program. And at the time, the sort of attached institute to the university was called the Institute of Religion, Peace, and Justice. It's now called the Jim Forrest Institute. But with the same with the same focus so. The Institute is is focused on developing peacemakers and and with the with the intent of having you know raising up peacemakers who are who are spiritually formed and are focused on nonviolent conflict transformation and things like that and so they had a bridge program that started in in that Institute and progressed into the the Masters of Arts and Theology and Culture and so that's the track that I took and and you know those beginning courses focused on like inner transformation and interreligious hospitality and cooperation and conflict transformation and kind of the practical peace-building aspects and So that was my sort of my introduction to To SSU and I have continued on in the theology and culture track. And they they've since developed multiple other tracks including a dedicated Masters in Peace Studies.

Wow!

They have some they have some pretty amazing a component of that program is a study abroad trip To the UK and Ireland To hear firsthand from from folks who Went through the troubles in in Ireland and and to hear how they've You know how those two countries have cooperated in in building a lasting peace and that's still an ongoing work. And so SSU is really doing some amazing amazing things. Even as a smaller school. There is they're connected to so many other institutions.

One of those is Bethlehem Bible College, where Reverend Dr. Monther Isaac is faculty. And we'll talk, I think we'll probably talk about him quite a bit more in terms of the song that we were referencing earlier. And, you know, so I've been, gosh, it's been such a blessing to be a part of that community, to have a group of like-minded people who are pursuing the kingdom of God in a very tangible way. And in that very tangible kind of Matthew five, Sermon on the Mount, Beatitudes kind of way.

That's what strikes me when you introduced this to me is, you know, I'm taking theologian culture, a master's degree with an emphasis in nonviolence and peacemaking. I thought, why aren't we all taking upper level studies with an emphasis in nonviolence and peacemaking? That seems like disciples of Jesus need some training, need some experience and field work in that area because our culture, you know, in many different aspects, but particularly the culture that I was raised in, and I think you and I have talked a little bit about your upbringing as well, does not have a heavy emphasis on what it looks like to be a peacemaker, but much more of, I don't know, what's the opposite, a warmonger or at least somebody who has enemies and bombs them.

Yeah, and I think if we're following Jesus or trying to follow Jesus, that is the work, right, allowing ourselves to be open to that kind of transformation of becoming a peacemaker, becoming more Christ-like in that way.

The tradition that I grew up in, you know, at best when Matthew 5, 6 and 7 was talked about and the Beatitudes were preached on, it was maybe an ideal that we could, you know, I don't even want to say aspire to, like it was an ideal that was unattainable for fallen humans.

Right.

And at worst, it was also there to show us what, as fallen humans we could not be, you know, maybe what Christ was, but what we could not be. And so coming into contact with other theologies around those ideas has been, you know, a lot really helpful for me in seeing that the the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes specifically, like that is the program for the way of Jesus. Like it is a way to be. And Bradley talks about that a lot in his writing as well, that following Jesus looks like living the Sermon on the Mount, that it looks like and that discipleship is a journey into a more full expression of that. You know, it's not an arrival, certainly. And it is a constant pursuit and divestiture of self. And, you know, becoming one of the other professors in the director of the Jim Forrest Institute, Andrew Cleger would say that it's the journey of becoming human.

Like actually becoming human. We're, he says, and I'm not sure, I think he's quoting somebody else. I remember he says, we're human becomings, not human beings.

You know, one of my teachers was just telling me, being a Christian in the in the truest and best sense of the word is truly being human. And we spend a lot of time being subhuman.

Yeah.

And I just wanted to interject there. If anybody is unfamiliar with what is meant or said when we're talking about Matthew five, six and seven and the Beatitudes in particular, it's this beautiful sermon that Jesus gives and it's hard to think about embodying because it's things like blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are the peacemakers for theirs is am I getting this right? The kingdom of heaven. It's been a minute since I reread it. And he has a lot, a lot to say.

And within those chapters also the ideas of, you know, nonviolent resistance and enemy love, loving your enemies and praying for those who persecute you, seeing persecution as a blessing, you know, blessed are you when you're persecuted and identifying in that persecution with the prophets in the Hebrew scriptures who were speaking of God in a way that, you know, resulted in their demise and understanding that testifying to the God who is love and the God who is the giving God, gives of God's self to humanity, is a quick way to get yourself into trouble.

That kind of bears itself out over history, right? When we talk about the God who is power and the God who is might, that's a God folks can get behind, especially the God who revisits our enemies with wrath and retribution.

But the God who is healing and justice in the restorative sense, all of those things are facets of the God who is love and love plus nothing, as Bradley Jerzak likes to say. And so we have... You know, we are participating when we do those things in a heritage of prophesying about the God who is love. And that leads ultimately that progression through the Beatitudes. And it's what Jim Forrest writes about in his book, The Ladder of the Beatitudes. It's a progression from poverty of the soul, poverty of spirit, to persecution and death. And even if that death is just a death of ego, the death of the self, and and theosis, becoming one with the Divine. That is the path that Jesus leads us on. It's a cross-shaped path. It's taking up our cross and following Christ. It's not something that is, you know, it's not just self-improvement.

Right.

It's a narrow way. And so all of that really feeling good stuff is said to say, like, it's been a gift to have those things, you know, to internalize those things in a way that leads, I think, to transformation. And seeing the world in a different way, seeing my neighbor in a different way, seeing what it means to love enemies and pray for those who persecute us, who love my enemies and pray for those who persecute me. But also the ways that I have been and am being an enemy to others, you know. And so it really, it's been a gift. And I'm immensely grateful for that community and immensely grateful for Bradley who is also my thesis supervisor and has been very encouraging to me in my academic career.

I am fighting off all sorts of jealousies and envies about what you're getting to study right now. But what you were just saying...

It's ssu.ca. You can sign up for the program.

I know and it's even distance learning. You don't know my backstory but there are about seven times in my life when I've been called toward studying theology and have not yet been able to answer that call in a formal way. But I am like a moth to the flame.

This is... I'm drooling over it.

I know a guy. I bet you do.

I bet you do. Well John what you were just talking about loving your enemies and realizing that you might be the enemy to somebody else really strikes me as the core of Christianity. Like if there is a, you know, I don't want to be sacrilegious here, but the 10 commandments of Christianity, there are really two, right? When Jesus is asked, please sum up all the Torah, he says, love God and love your neighbor as yourself. This reminds me of the song you wrote In the Rubble. So I'd like to play that now. So the folks can hear what I'm talking about. This is incredible. The lyrics, who told you to draw your sword? Put it away. This savage fantasy of hating your enemy is not what I wanted for you. Let's give this beautiful poem that you put to words a listen.

Who told you to draw your sword? Put it away. This savage fantasy, hating your enemy, is not what I wanted for you It's not what I wanted for you.

Who told you to be afraid? That wasn't me. Somehow confused again. Twisting my arms and then Burning it all to the ground burning it all to the ground.

Love is patient. I'll keep waiting on the broken side of town. You can find me in the rubble of the houses you brought down.

Who told you to fight for me? That was a lie. I'll bring you mercy's stream, Justice and flourishing Washing your violence away. Washing your violence away.

Love is patient. I'll keep waiting On the broken side of town. You can find me in the rubble of the houses you broke down.

Cause nobody else has to die. Nobody else has to die. Nobody else has to die to make it right. Nobody else has to die. Nobody else has to die. Nobody else has to die to make it right.

Love is patient. I'll keep waiting on the broken side of town. You can find me in the rubble of the houses you broke down.

Love is patient. I'll keep waiting on the broken side of town. You can find me in the rubble of the houses you broke down. I cannot be again to express to you what my spirit feels listening to this song. Can you talk about the how did this song come to be? How did it how did you birth these lyrics?

Yeah. First of all, I'm, it's really special to me that it's meaningful to you. So thank you for saying that and for even to invite me to talk about it. Like I'm, that's really, really special to me. The song came from just a place of deep sadness and it's a swirl of different things in terms of ideas and people who said those things. You know, I think I referenced earlier Reverend Dr. Monther Isaac, who is a Lutheran pastor in the West Bank, Palestinian Christian. And he wrote a piece for Sojourner's Magazine. I think in November, it may have been late October actually. And he talked about God being beneath the rubble in Gaza. And just the idea that God being on the side of the oppressed, that's where we find God is beneath the rubble of those homes and churches and places of worship, mosques and just all of the innocent people who are suffering because of this tragic violence.

The violence of October 7th that was wrought by Hamas and the response from the Israeli government and the IDF. The people that suffer the most in war are children and innocent people. And that's definitely bearing itself out in this situation.

And just the image of God being being beneath the rubble was something that I think I've told other people like it just it rearranged my imagination. Even as much as you know I've read and studied and heard and said God is on the side of the oppressed, to think about it that way, to think about you know when we're watching people being pulled from the rubble, living people and dead people that is where we find God in war.

We don't find God on the side of, you know, one of the combatants and we want so much to put God there, to put God on our side essentially and we do that. But what Reverend Dr. Monther Isaac was saying is, you know, so poignant and just so captivating, this idea of God beneath the rubble and taking that idea of the God who is love and love being patient, waiting for us to stop, waiting for us to change, to cease the violence, to live into that Isaiah prophecy of studying war no more, beating our swords into plowshares and our spears into pruning hooks and laying down our weapons and seeking human flourishing and the God who is love is waiting patiently.

And what bears witness to that are the humans in the image of God who are suffering because of our violence and they are crying out against that violence. And so that imagery really was kind of the jumping-off point for, you know, this place of lament that I found myself in that night when I was writing this song.

So this song came after October 7's events?

Yes.

Okay. Wow.

In response to October 7th and very much in response to, you know, what I would say is the, I'm not a foreign policy expert, certainly, but what I would say is the disproportionate response of Israel to the events of October 7th. The children were suffering on October 7th too. I'm not saying that they weren't. They certainly were and are. The hostages in those situations and all those things. But what was weighing heavy on me as I was writing this song was especially in American Christian circles, we have the tendency to again put God on a side and say God is on this side. And it happens to be the side that we're also on.

It just so happens.

And it's an armed side with nuclear capability. It's a side with the largest and most devastating military force in history. And so we put we put God on that side and and you know, when we look at Jesus's words in the Sermon on the Mount and this idea that you know, you've heard it said, Love love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I tell you love love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you. The audacity of that statement, you know, and and I think even further the audacity of those of us who claim to follow Jesus, but are quick to say We're gonna get them back

Right.

We're gonna hit them back and we're gonna hit them hard and we're gonna make sure that they never do it again I'm gonna teach you a lesson teach them a lesson that devastating military power

Mm -hmm, which I don't know I'm asking myself this question What does an alternative response to violence even look like? And all I get from Jesus when I take this question him is Have you studied my life do you see my response to violence, right?

Yeah, and and that's that too like what? What we ultimately follow is the the God, who dies who suffers our violence, you know. Again, I grew up in a tradition with this Substitutionary Atonement, you know idea of what the cross means and that has since been replaced in my theological imagination by the idea of a Christ who comes in and suffers our violence, the violence that we inflict. Not the violence that God inflicts upon Jesus. And so if that is true, if that's who we're following and wanting to become like, wanting to be Christ-like, and praying things like, you know, make us more like Jesus, we are asking to follow in the footsteps of one who suffers violence, against whom violence is committed, and he does not respond violently. And so as much as we, you know, in a modern, you know, Western sense would push back with ideas of self-defense or whatever, like we just don't find that in the Jesus story. We find a, we find a divine willingness to be with us even to the extent like being with us meant and means enduring and forgiving our violence even as it is being committed.

And so finding a way to that. And that finding a way, I think that is what spiritual transformation and discipleship and salvation is about. Is the work of the Spirit in us leading us into that. Like I don't think that's just something that we wake up one day and decide we can do.

No, and if we did, it would lead to equal unhealth, maybe on the other side. I like to think of it as walking a ridge and you can fall off one side of being. In fact, I was just having an online conversation with folks about this. Recently, I asked this question. Where do you fall on the spectrum from selfish beast to selfless doormat? And it was an interesting exchange with people like, oh, I have tended toward one or the other. And the way Christ shows us is neither. It's like maybe not even on the spectrum. Perhaps it's above and beyond, greater than all of our linear thinking. But because it's something that particularly for women and you know, my interest is so much in feminine spirituality and divine femininity. If I were to try to emulate Christ's nonviolent response to the violence against Him. If I were to try to respond to that on my own, it could very easily take me into the territory of becoming abused.

Yeah.

And not having a sense of my own boundaries and what is safe and good for me. And I'm just speaking as a woman and that's all I know, but I think there's something to be said here for.

And I think there's been a weaponized in the past as well against women. I think it absolutely. I mean, I think it absolutely has been weaponized against women in the past. And today, this idea that suffering is a way of being. Like you say, kind of fostering that doormat theology that almost, you know, well, it definitely excuses abuse, but it also kind of baptizes it or whitewashes it into being an acceptable means of sanctification, which is not.

No.

Hard stop. No.

Yeah, hard stop. No. Yeah, hell no. You know, the idea that Christ suffering our violence is somehow birthing in Christians this idea of victimhood. You know, we're just ready to become victims. Misses, I think the big, you know, kind of salvation picture of the Incarnation, not just the cross, but. of the Incarnation, you know. Christ is including in himself all of our suffering because we as as the violence doers are our suffering just as much.

We are suffering that violence as well. Like it is. It is corrupting us even in as much, even as it's hurting others. And so Christ is taking into himself all of our suffering and uniting that with divinity.

And so God is God is including us in a way that is a mystery. And it's certainly a way that we wouldn't choose to, you know, even as modern people, like we want to, we want to banish suffering and Christ came and endured it.

We want to remove suffering and Christ came and endured it. And and some and in some way that also means that that that's part of what it means to be human. is to be able to experience suffering in a transformational way and in no way would I advocate that means that enduring abuse or enduring, you know, state-sanctioned violence or any of those things is somehow a holy thing by no means. But Christ is with us in that. God is with us in those moments. God is in the deep places of our suffering and that is true on both sides of that suffering, the inflicted and the inflicted.

And I think the lyrics in the third verse of your song, I'll bring you to mercy's stream, justice and flourishing, washing your violence away. Because at the end of it all, violence is anti-love. There is no there is no conflating violence with love and anybody who's saying differently is, they have some work to do. Yeah, they have some work to do because there's there's no room in love for violence and God wants to rid us of our tendency toward violence. I am also enlivened when I when I listen to your music by, this is there's a segue here, I promise but I am kind of jumping train tracks on the surface. Your understanding of women's need to be to have our voices elevated, particularly within the church. And as you were just speaking now, you know, in situations where women have received the messaging that somehow our suffering, abuse, and neglect is holy. How those things need to be done away with. Can you talk a little bit about and then I want to play My Father's Sons...can you talk a little bit about kind of how you have come to uncover what's been missing within? I would say in my words mainstream Christianity, the female voice missing and and how you've come to discover that.

Yeah, maybe. Yes. I don't um Let me say I'll try and explain my personal journey with that because, you know, what it really feels like is not a discovery of something that was hidden from me. And really it feels more of like a coming into something that was always, you know, true and there. And also try to say in some way on the back end of that, there is a way to look at the history of the church and Christian history that is inclusive and amplifying of the voices of many women.

I mean, going back to the New Testament, obviously, but there is a, we have a heritage in Christianity of beautiful testimony of feminine spirituality and voices of female leaders and teachers and mystics and mothers who have stewarded the traditions of the women at the tomb, you know. And so I'll try to come back around to that as well. For me, you know growing up in a tradition in which women could not be Pastors or Clergy, whatever we didn't we didn't have clergy, but we had pastors. You know preaching was was men's work, that kind of thing. You know my my spiritual journey from from childhood was deeply shaped by women. I think my you know from a young young age my greatest spiritual touchstone is my grandmother. And I think I told you a little bit of the story on the phone when we talked the first time. You know my my grandmother who is still living and with whom I have a wonderful relationship, my mother's mother. When I was a small child, she was practicing alcoholic and and when she came into sobriety and was going to a meeting she asked my parents if she could take me with her. And they said yes. And so I have a lot of like young core memories, and I'm not endorsing this. I mean, it's I'm just saying it happened. You know, I think I told you on the phone I learned The Lord's Prayer as a small child, alcoholics anonymous meetings with my grandmother.

I don't think a lot of folks could say that John.

No, probably not. I love I love to tell the story this way. I usually, you know, I've blown it now, but I usually say to people, you know, I, I learned the Lord's prayer when I was five. No, no, that's not how I do it. Yeah, this way. I learned the Lord's prayer at alcoholics anonymous. When I was five years old. And then I kind of like to watch the face like. Alcoholics Anonymous, and you were five, you know. But the truth is, watching my grandmother's journey in sobriety and her relationship with Jesus unfolding in that way, in this true transformation, and I don't have any memories of the earlier time at all. But I do have memories of going to meetings and things like that, and of internalizing some of those things about God intervening in our lives. And when we reach the end of ourselves, that's where we find the Divine waiting for us to...

And so those things were deeply shaped by this positive female influence in my life. And a lot of what I know about Jesus, I learned from my grandmother. And I hold on to that now because I realize that I've been shaped by so many female pastors and teachers and voices in my life that I wouldn't be who I am without those people.

A lot of my spiritual journey, and especially in the last 12 to 15 years, has really been kind of unlearning the toxic masculinity that I came up in, just fully cutting off 50% of the population and assigning them to the children's ministry or whatever in church.

And this weird cutoff that like you can be taught by a woman until you're 18 years old.

Or in some traditions, 12.

Or 12 or whatever. And so what has helped me kind of unlearn that is not to have a vacuum where I just you know where Mark Driscoll or whatever is turned down, which I mean by all means.

Crank that volume down to zero.

Yep. But in a way, like replacing that with voices that do reveal the other half of who God is. The other half of what God wants to say to us in the voices of my sisters and siblings who have been actively silenced, right?

And I look at the individuals who have personally affected me in the last decade or so, and I'm deeply grateful for them and the relationships that I still have. And even to this day, I lament the fact that many of them, even if they're in Christian denominations that allow them to be ordained and preach and all those things, they still feel like they have to fight in some ways. They still feel like they're competing.

Yeah. And we don't really have much of a framework yet for what it looks like to, as you were saying, and I'm tagging this and wanting to get back to it after the song, about the other half of God.

Yeah.

We hardly have a framework for what does it look like for God to have feminine characteristics too, so that we know that our femininity derives directly from God and not as an afterthought.

Yeah. And there's so much scriptural imagery to provide that framework.

Yes.

There's so much already there. And the ones that interact with it or whatever, it's almost like growing up, like tried to find ways to not make it about the feminine. And instead of just... being willing to embrace that. Like, and-

Which I think in your song, you asked this question, like, what are you so afraid of? Like, why is this scary to you to think about?

Yeah, well, and, you know, ultimately, I'm asking that question because I know in me, it's still about power. It's still, what am I afraid of? I'm afraid of losing power, or, you know, a platform or whatever, whatever you wanna call it. Like, that's what we're risking.

What is it that you say in the song, the white knuckle hold on the microphone?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Let's have that song play now, so folks can know what we're talking about, and then I wanna get back to the whole thread about the feminine part of the divine. So here is... My Father's Sons.

My Father's sons won't let His daughters in the house, unless it's in the kitchen, or the rooms with all the kids.

What do you have to fear? What do you have to fear?

Are you certain? Are you certain? Are you certain that you're right? Or afraid of being wrong? Are you certain? Are you certain?

My father's sons won't let their sisters speak the truth. White knuckling the microphone. Afraid of letting go.

Who do you have to fear? Who do you have to fear? Are you certain? Are you certain? Are you certain that you're right, or afraid of being wrong? Are you certain? Are you certain? Are you certain that you're right, or afraid to be wrong?

Do not be afraid, do not be afraid, do not be afraid.

Go, tell my brothers, go, tell my brothers, go, tell my brothers what you've seen.

My father's daughters are living, breathing fire, burning not consumed, full of grace and truth.

Do not be afraid.

John, I want to thank you for what that song does for me and for I'm sure many sisters of mine who, we've spent a lot of time in the rooms in the home where the kitchen is and where the children are and where we really want to be is in the living room at Jesus' feet as disciples should be. And so thank you for recognizing this and honoring who we are and what our giftedness is about and how we, too, reflect the Divine. Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah, again, I'm just so moved that it's meaningful to you and to others. Like, one of the gifts of I think being a songwriter and getting to share music with other people is getting to hear how that music connects with others in ways that I couldn't have even imagined when I wrote the song.

I wrote that song in an angry place. I think watching that kind of a major component of the tradition I grew up in, vote churches out of their system because these churches had, you know, either ordained or named or, whatever, women as pastors on their staff, on their website or whatever.

How dare they?

I know. But, and so, and so I was in, I was in an angry space writing that song and asking that question, you know, what do you have or who, even more importantly do you have to fear? Because we have this idea that, you know, we or at least we've told ourselves for a long, long time that we're doing what God wants us to do by excluding female voices from the pulpit.

And, you know, It's kind of absurd to me a little bit. Like no one has ever questioned my platform, right? As a white male with musical talent and whatever else, there are so many churches that I could just walk into and preach or lead in some way, shape or form. I don't have to qualify in a lot of ways. And I certainly don't have to qualify in the ways that my sisters have to qualify. Because they have to be even better than the best man in the room, right? And so to have you say, and to have others say to me, like that song makes me feel seen or that song gives me language for, and both of these songs have been blessed enough to have the experience of having people say, like that song gives words to something that I, and that as a songwriter is, that's it. Like that's the peak. I guess a Grammy would be not even close to that really. To be fortunate enough to have other people listen to a song that I wrote as a way of working through my own anger or sadness, um, you and know that other people are out there feeling the same thing too, and are experiencing it in ways that I'm not experiencing it, you know. But that my song gets to be a part of that is just such a privilege.

Well, I tell you, it is my story and someday I'll share all of the parts in some form or another, but in college I realized I really wanted to study theology, and I was a part of a tradition that was wondering whether or not women could have the right to preach, and my university was affirming of that, of women, and so they sent me up with a mentor who was already out being a pastor and they kind of took me under their wing and like, oh, here comes another one. Let's see what we can do to offer her the resources she might need. Ultimately, I shied away. I backed out of it largely because I knew that outside the confines of my wonderful university with my religion professors and theology professors who saw this that you're describing, I didn't want my career to be about the fight for the pulpit. And so I went off and I became a teacher which I both loved and also settled for because nobody would question if I was teaching Bible to a room full of children the way that they would if I were teaching Bible to a room full of adults.

And so later on, fast forward many years, I was also again, my local congregation was a little bit more amenable to women in the ministry. And so they were seeking an associate pastor and my name came up and they were very happy to consider me as a nominee. And then they took it to the conference, and that's the like the overall group of the tiny groups, it's like the state with all the cities inside. And the conference said, we don't think it would be a good idea to hire Anni because your church would be amenable to her, but what if she needs to move? We couldn't place her anywhere else and so better hire a man. And I've had a few other experiences akin to those, but.

So sorry.

Yeah, thank you. And it's OK. It is well now and better things are happening.

I'm glad it's OK for you. That's I really am like. Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you. Well, the the thing that has transformed me in recent years is the awakening I've experienced to. So this question came to me. I don't remember if I shared it with you on the phone or not, how I began to wonder about things that eventually led me to, oh, God has feminine characteristics, too. And so that's where you get them from. Like they are divine too, just like masculine traits. But it came in the form of reading a book that sparked me to ask the question, hey, why are all my books on my shelf almost exclusively authored by males? Almost all of them, with the exception of maybe 10%. Why is that? And then the questions began to come and after I would consider one question and think about it, then the next one would bombard me until finally I was looking at the Godhead and wondering, wait a minute, is God the Father a single dad? Does God experience any form of intimacy as in sexually the way that we do? Who is this Spirit character? And then those questions led me on this beautiful path toward the direction I've headed in now, which is, oh yeah, I have missed a lot and I feel like I'm playing catch-up looking at the Holy Spirit's feminine characteristics and being like a kid in a candy shop with my hands on the windows, my face pressed in. Are you kidding me? Could it really be that good? Could I really have a Divine Mother as well as a Divine Father? Because that would just, that would, my head would explode.

Yeah. Yeah, I don't know if I have anything to add to that. You know, what's been beautiful to me is hearing stories like that where, I just woke Siri up on my computer. That was really something. What's been beautiful to me really is hearing stories like yours where, certainly we were conditioned to see not just God as a single Father, but God as this, the Trinity is this hierarchy, right? Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Way down here. Way below. She made this.

This weird extra God creature.

And not only does the early church, as, as the theology of the Trinity is forming, right? Not have a hierarchy. You know, the idea of, you know, splitting those up in that way is a heresy. And so we've been conditioned to close off our imaginations, you know, especially into this, you know, sort of masculine hierarchy, I think. And even when I talk about it, I don't feel, I don't feel qualified to talk about this because I still feel like my imagination is recovering from that. You know, one of the, one of the healing things for me has been coming into more ancient traditions of the faith that, you know, venerate women who are saints and, you know, have a much more prominent place for Mary.

And, you know, growing up in a Baptist church, like calling Mary the mother of God was a no-no. And the more that I've sat with that and the more that I've learned from these more ancient traditions and even, you know, not just reading ancient fathers and mothers, but also those, the way that those traditions are stewarded today.

In the Catholic and Orthodox churches, that Mary is the mother of God also means that Mary is the mother of us, right? Like, we have this mom who birthed Divinity into the world in a way that I don't have a lot of language for that.

And that God chooses that way to enter into our reality says something deep about the Divine. And like you say, the feminine characteristics of God that we either gloss over or dismiss or don't recognize, like we really are losing, have lost this these beautiful attributes of who God is. And I think when Jesus invokes that imagery of a mother hen gathering Jerusalem beneath her wings and all of the divine feminine language in the Psalms, a lot of it's modernity and whatever else, again, that I think has twisted those things up for us. And that infects a lot of things. You know, not just conservative evangelical circles, right?

It's affected the whole world.

Yeah. And again, our notion of God as this powerful thing, um lends itself to that kind of toxic masculinity, right?

It supports it almost It does support it.

It does support it and and they're codependent ideas, right? They very much feed off of each other Michael Gorman in his book Inhabiting the Cruciform God talks about Jesus's Canotic love like Jesus is emptying of himself in Philippians 2, is so subversive and and to our idea of God right because we have we have these preconceptions of God as a God who takes whatever He wants. And what and what Christ is showing us in in emptying himself and taking on the form of a slave and and submitting the death Is a God who eternally gives and doesn't take and doesn't claim for himself.

Hmm, right? That's that's what Paul is writing there, you know didn't treat equality with God something to be grasped but emptied himself, and so when we have this preconception of God as the God who takes whatever God wants by force, we automatically assign that male. And part of the reason that we do that is because historically that's what males do right That that has become that codependent conditioning thing.

It cycles back in on itself and it's an echo chamber then.

Yep, because I as as a man like the expectation is if I want something go out and get it go out and take it. And one of the things that I'm learning and writing about is how to be willing, say it this way. One of the things that I'm learning and writing about is how to allow yourself to see something that is inspiring or beautiful or captivating. And instead of saying, I want that or I have to have that, learning to say I want to be like that.

Woah!

Learning instead of surrounding, surrendering, instead of taking, being taken by. And instead of saying, I have to have that, learning to say, I want to be like that. And that is the, you know, and again, we sort of assign those taking and forceful things, masculine qualities. And that shows up in literature throughout history and it shows up, certainly it bears itself out in society. But ultimately, it has to do with our conception of God. It has to do with how we see the Divine as this taker, you know. And so when we say we surrender to God, we don't see God as mutually surrendering to us.

Oh, that is so profound.

That's precisely what Christ is doing, is emptying himself, not of his Divinity, and that's what Gorman is saying, not of his Divinity, but exercising his Divinity in emptying himself. That's what it means to be divine. That it doesn't mean to be a God who takes whatever He wants, when He wants, how He wants, by force. But instead to empty yourself of love in love, through love, because of love, and into the world. I want to read you this quote. Can I read you this quote?

Absolutely.

I have to get up and get it. No, I don't. It's on my phone.

It's on your phone? Okay.

Yeah, I took a picture of it. So my, the main theologian that I'm dealing with, in my thesis is 20th century Swiss Catholic theologian named Hans Erz von Balthasar.

I've come across his work.

I'm sure you have. I love him. And I'm just scratching the surface of his work. But his theology of beauty has been a main source of theological content for my thesis. And this is what he says. And you can tell me if this sounds more masculine or feminine. We'll put it in that. We'll put it in that.

"Now, by act of faith and surrender, what is meant in the Bible and in reality is an act of self-surrendering love to God. For this reason it is not erroneous to say that the lover in all things, renounces what is his own and desires to clear all available space in himself for the beloved. The lover therefore embraces as his own the experience which is the beloved's. And on the contrary, he no longer desires to have within himself what a non-lover would call his own experience, but to have it only in the beloved. Nor again is it erroneous to say, in a Christian sense, the believer can have objective experiences in Christ and in the church, which need not be consciously perceived by him in a subjective psychological sense."

And he's going on to say like, the experiences that we have in Christ and in the church are already subjective in our being. But the earlier part of the quote is the important part. "The lover embraces as his own the experience which is the beloved's. And he no longer desires to have within himself what a non-lover would call his own experience, but to have it only in the beloved."

And so this idea of emptying, excuse me, this idea of emptying oneself to make space for the beloved, because we see that in Christ. We see that in ourselves as well, right? When we surrender to God in faith, making space for the Divine in ourselves. And as von Balthasar would say, Christ unfolding himself in our reality, like in our souls.

In our beings. This seems to me very, the two becoming one, you know this great metaphor God has offered us in unity of marriage, however that looks and there's lots to say about that. This mystery of two beings being fully present and together experiencing one another such that thought is fluid, being is fluid.

An experience of oneself in the experience of the other.

Something I think, I think Rob Bell talks about this. One of my teachers says, whenever I would do one of the unity candle ceremonies I would say I would do one of the unity candle ceremonies.

in a wedding, I would always hate to see the part where the couple each have their own candle and then light the middle candle so that it's lit and then they blow out their own flames.

Right.

Yeah, he would say keep all that like all the candles Yep, so that you are not losing yourself. You are entering into greater light together in this. That's right unique expression of who you are individually and together collectively making a new unit.

Yeah.

I Want to get to the place where when I consider God I am done needing to consider gender, but I just not I'm not healed past all of this yet. So I'm really at this place I'm camping out in you know in my understanding and experience, the the beautiful wide open heart of God the Father interplaying with the nurturing arms of God the Mother, the Holy Spirit, and I don't even have words for how Jesus ends up in this picture. And the end and the Unity, the relationship that is the three of them always together, birthing all things into into being. And so that reminds me of your version of the Doxology, where, and I've heard you do it a couple of times, don't think I haven't noticed John, where you speak of God and God's self Rather than assigning a gendered pronoun to God.

I'm still learning to do that.

Yeah, but I love it and and I thank you and we need that. And so I wanted to to send us off with the Doxology that you've done. It's just so beautiful. Musically, it's just exquisite. But also, it does things for my soul, again, hearing this beloved song from my heritage, obviously, and revering and honoring God as God, not as necessarily and always He, His, Him.

Before we get there though, I want to offer you just a chance. If somebody listening is like, I need more of this guy's music, how can people find you? How can they reach out to you and say, thank you? Where are you in the great big wide world so people can find you?

Yeah, my music is available at johnhatfield.net. And I hope to have, some studio versions of My Father's Sons and In the Rubble and several other songs a little later the early part of this year sometime in the springtime. So my music's available at JohnHatfield.net. I'm on Instagram is probably the best place to... I'm on Twitter too but I mean X or Twitter or what I don't care. Instagram, you can just take all that out. I'm on Instagram at John Hatfield Music and those are really the best places to find me and have been the places that I've had the richest interaction with folks.

Well clearly it's a good place to meet you because that's how I found out about you, so it's a good place to start.

Yeah that's how we connected. But yeah I want to say real quick like I can't take credit for the version of Doxology, lyrically. A good friend of mine who's an Episcopal priest here in Houston his name is Jacob Breeze. His church is called Holy Family. He was the one who introduced me to the lyrics of the Doxology, you know saying God praise God from whom all blessings flow, praise God all creatures here below, praise God above ye heavenly hosts. And then there is still masculine praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. And I've told people in the past like I'm comfortable using father-language to talk about God because Jesus does you know I think there is a healing aspect to that. Maybe not for everybody, but what what I want is for our vision like you're talking about, and I think this podcast is a big part of that, and I'm grateful for your work in the world.

Like, what I want is for us to move beyond that idea into the imagination that God is bigger than our metaphors of Father and our metaphors of gendered language or whatever. Precisely because the, I believe the incarnation is true. I believe that Jesus takes humanity into divinity and makes them one, and that means humanity, not male or female. You know, I really, I literally believe what Paul says that in Christ there is no male or female, Jew or Greek, slavery free. For all are one in Christ Jesus. All are one in Christ Jesus. All are one in Christ Jesus. I'm just going to keep saying it. And that also that means that your experiences and my experiences are interconnected. Our experiences of God and our experiences in the world. I hope that I'm becoming more sensitive to the suffering of my sisters and the things that they've experienced simply for being women, the injustices that they've experienced.

I hope that I'm able to identify with that, not just acknowledge it and see it, but identify with it. I hope that I'm able to identify with the suffering of those who have been afflicted by my Christian faith and the weaponization of my Christian faith, not just acknowledge it, but identify with it and work to transform that and heal it. And I think that all starts with a picture of God that is big, bigger, and continuing to get bigger. Because I believe that beauty is an invitation to experience divine love. And I think that love is inclusive of existence, of humanity, certainly, but of existence in general, that what Jesus does in the Incarnation is he brings existence into oneness with God.

And I think that's the starting point. I think that imagination is the starting point for those other things, for those other liberations and transformations. And so while I can't take credit for incorporating God and not male-gendered pronouns in the Doxology, that has been a gift for me. Like I can't sing it the old the old way anymore um and uh a church that I was serving a few years back when when my time at that church came to an end I don't even I can't reach it to show it to you but um one of the gifts they gave me as as I was leaving to go serve elsewhere um was this beautiful handwritten musical setting of the Doxology with God instead of He the way you sing it is what.

They got it! It got to them.

Yeah it did it did and it became an important part of their worship um as much as it's an important part of my worship and again like there's no greater reward as a songwriter for things like that um you But my hope is that it expands our imaginations and our experience of God in worship that I think is transformative. Because as we begin to see God as bigger and bigger and bigger, and that expansiveness, that expansiveness is inclusivity, right? It is wrapping itself around more and more and more of our existence.

It cannot help but do that.

Exactly. So, thank you for all of that and for the ability to even talk about this stuff. I'm so grateful to you. Thank you.

Thank you. It's a gift to me and thank you for the work that you are doing in this world, in your preparations for whatever comes next in your listening and tuning in and then letting these songs come through you. Thank you, especially for your attention to your sisters. It is noted and deeply, deeply appreciated. Thank you.

Thank you, Anni.

And now I'm going to close out this whole podcast with Amen plus Doxology. And if you want to find me, you know how to get a hold of me, BarelyChristianFullychristian.com. I hope you enjoy this song as much as I do.

Amen, amen, amen. Praise God from all blessings flow. Praise God, oh creatures here below. Praise God above ye heavenly hosts. Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Amen, amen, amen. Amen, amen, amen. Amen.